Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2010 18:34:15 GMT -5
I want you to see The Venus Project and give your opinion about it.
In here I am only trying to make a resume of what they talk about, but if you want to truly understand what they mean, dedicate a few time to check their site, and then post back saying your opinion. If you are unsure how to comment try to start by giving your opinion about the following questions: Is this desirable? And is it feasible?
According to their about page, the problems we see currently of poverty, war, hunger, etc are not solvable under the system our society relies on. Even if there were progresses, these would be slow and results watered down along the path, this is, if there was enough money to do these.
Their proposal is a total change of human values and radical changes in our society, made in a peaceful way. The idea relies on the idea that natural resources are each and everyone's common heritage and that anything less will make the efforts useless.
They believe that a monetary system is not capable of providing a high standard of living for everyone nor protect the environment, as the main goal of such systems is profit. They even predict that with automation and similar, fewer people will have the ability to purchase good, despite our increasing ability to produce them.
This was in the past a system to manage a place of limited resources, but in our current system, purchasing power is not equivalent to our capability to produce. Stores are filled with goods, waiting to be bought, but there is no money to buy it. This system is causing unnecessary suffering.
They believe that all current systems rely on resources to function (air, water, land, technology, personnel, etc). Their proposal, a resource based system, is a system in which resources are available to everyone without credits, bartering or any for of debt.
Quoting their about page: "Earth is abundant with plentiful resources; today our practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant and counter productive to our survival. Modern society has access to highly advanced technologies and can make available food, clothing, housing, medical care, a relevant educational system, and develop a limitless supply of renewable, non-contaminating energy such as geothermal, solar, wind, tidal, etc. It is now possible to have everyone enjoy a very high standard of living with all of the amenities that a prosperous civilization can provide. This can be accomplished through the intelligent and humane application of science and technology. (...)
When education and resources are made available to all people without a price tag, there would be no limit to the human potential. Although this is difficult to imagine, even the wealthiest person today would be far better off in a resource based society as proposed by The Venus Project. Today the middle classes live better than kings of times past. In a resource based economy everyone would live better than the wealthiest of today."
So, basically, their idea is that we can make all our resources available for everyone responsibly without having to worry about the things that originally made money appear, which is the lack of these resources, as not even money has that goal of managing resources anymore.
From their FAQ page I took a few more important questions, so certain objections which are already answered don't come up (check their FAQ page anyway, it has many more more complete answers):
Elaborate a bit, if you will, on your views regarding money.
In here I am only trying to make a resume of what they talk about, but if you want to truly understand what they mean, dedicate a few time to check their site, and then post back saying your opinion. If you are unsure how to comment try to start by giving your opinion about the following questions: Is this desirable? And is it feasible?
According to their about page, the problems we see currently of poverty, war, hunger, etc are not solvable under the system our society relies on. Even if there were progresses, these would be slow and results watered down along the path, this is, if there was enough money to do these.
Their proposal is a total change of human values and radical changes in our society, made in a peaceful way. The idea relies on the idea that natural resources are each and everyone's common heritage and that anything less will make the efforts useless.
They believe that a monetary system is not capable of providing a high standard of living for everyone nor protect the environment, as the main goal of such systems is profit. They even predict that with automation and similar, fewer people will have the ability to purchase good, despite our increasing ability to produce them.
This was in the past a system to manage a place of limited resources, but in our current system, purchasing power is not equivalent to our capability to produce. Stores are filled with goods, waiting to be bought, but there is no money to buy it. This system is causing unnecessary suffering.
They believe that all current systems rely on resources to function (air, water, land, technology, personnel, etc). Their proposal, a resource based system, is a system in which resources are available to everyone without credits, bartering or any for of debt.
Quoting their about page: "Earth is abundant with plentiful resources; today our practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant and counter productive to our survival. Modern society has access to highly advanced technologies and can make available food, clothing, housing, medical care, a relevant educational system, and develop a limitless supply of renewable, non-contaminating energy such as geothermal, solar, wind, tidal, etc. It is now possible to have everyone enjoy a very high standard of living with all of the amenities that a prosperous civilization can provide. This can be accomplished through the intelligent and humane application of science and technology. (...)
When education and resources are made available to all people without a price tag, there would be no limit to the human potential. Although this is difficult to imagine, even the wealthiest person today would be far better off in a resource based society as proposed by The Venus Project. Today the middle classes live better than kings of times past. In a resource based economy everyone would live better than the wealthiest of today."
So, basically, their idea is that we can make all our resources available for everyone responsibly without having to worry about the things that originally made money appear, which is the lack of these resources, as not even money has that goal of managing resources anymore.
From their FAQ page I took a few more important questions, so certain objections which are already answered don't come up (check their FAQ page anyway, it has many more more complete answers):
Elaborate a bit, if you will, on your views regarding money.
If all the money in the world were destroyed, as long as we have sufficient arable land, the factories, the necessary resources, and technical personnel, we could build anything and even supply an abundance. During the Depression, there were vacuum cleaners in store windows and automobiles in car lots. The Earth was still the same place. There was just no money in people's wallets and very little purchasing power. At the beginning of World War II, the U.S. had about 600 first-class fighting aircraft. We rapidly overcame this short-supply by turning out over 90,000 planes per year. The question at the start of World War II was: Do we have enough funds to produce the required implements of war? The answer was No, we did not have enough money or gold, but we did have more than enough resources. It was the available resources and technical personnel that enabled the U.S. to achieve the production and efficiency required to win the war.
It appears that the real wealth of any nation is in its natural resources and its people who are working toward a more humane life-style through the elimination of scarcity. All social systems, regardless of the political philosophy, religious beliefs, or social mores, ultimately depend upon natural resources -- i.e. clean air and water and arable land area -- and the industrial equipment and technical personnel for a high standard of living. The money- based system was designed hundreds of years ago and was hardly appropriate for that time. We still utilize this same outmoded system, which is probably responsible for most of today's problems. I have no doubt that even the wealthiest person today would be far better off in the high-energy society that The Venus Project proposes.
How would one choose a home? (I placed this one to give an example of how it would work)It appears that the real wealth of any nation is in its natural resources and its people who are working toward a more humane life-style through the elimination of scarcity. All social systems, regardless of the political philosophy, religious beliefs, or social mores, ultimately depend upon natural resources -- i.e. clean air and water and arable land area -- and the industrial equipment and technical personnel for a high standard of living. The money- based system was designed hundreds of years ago and was hardly appropriate for that time. We still utilize this same outmoded system, which is probably responsible for most of today's problems. I have no doubt that even the wealthiest person today would be far better off in the high-energy society that The Venus Project proposes.
An example of the wide range of choice available in a resource-based economy is the way one selects a house. For instance, a man and woman may visit an architectural design center and sit in front of a clear hemisphere approximately six feet in diameter. The woman describes the type of house she would prefer and her areas of interest. The house appears as a 3-dimensional image in the center of the hemisphere. It rotates slowly to present a view of the interior and exterior. Then the man describes his major interests and preferences and suggests a larger balcony. The 3-dimensional image is adjusted. When they have finished requesting changes, the computer presents various alternatives to consider. They will also enter a sensorium to experience a walk-through of their preferred design and continue to make changes.
When they arrive at a final design, construction procedures are set in motion. The computer selects materials for efficiency and durability. None of the architecture is permanent and can be modified and updated at the request of the occupants.
This is real individual choice. In a monetary system, most live near their work with a house, car, and lifestyle they can afford (or all too often cannot afford), rather than one they prefer. Today we are only as free as our purchasing power permits. Lacking a true sense of self worth, many buy houses as status symbols just to impress others.
A resource-based economy changes the nature of our dwellings from that of status symbol, or just basic shelter, to a reflection of individuality and personal interests.
Why is this concept superior to other intentional community projects?When they arrive at a final design, construction procedures are set in motion. The computer selects materials for efficiency and durability. None of the architecture is permanent and can be modified and updated at the request of the occupants.
This is real individual choice. In a monetary system, most live near their work with a house, car, and lifestyle they can afford (or all too often cannot afford), rather than one they prefer. Today we are only as free as our purchasing power permits. Lacking a true sense of self worth, many buy houses as status symbols just to impress others.
A resource-based economy changes the nature of our dwellings from that of status symbol, or just basic shelter, to a reflection of individuality and personal interests.
Intentional communities attempt to have a better standard of living within our current system but we see this as patch work. If there is an economic break down, the intentional community falls apart. From our point of view it is not a feasible solution, it is patchwork of private capitalism for a selected few. We are not against intentional communities, but it does not address the problems, it avoids addressing national and international conflict, unemployment, displacement of people by machines, environmental degradation, political corruption and all the other artificialities of our civilization.
How are Resources Distributed Equitably?Distribution of goods and services without the use of money or tokens would be accomplished by establishing distribution centers. These centers would be similar to expositions, where the advantages of new products are explained and demonstrated. Exhibition centers will display what is new and available and will constantly be updated. If you visited Yellowstone National Park, you could check out a camera or camcorder, use it, and then return it to another distribution center or drop-off, eliminating storage and maintenance.
Besides computerized centers throughout the communities where products would eventually be displayed, there will be 3-D, flat-screen imaging in each home. If you desire an item, an order can be placed and the item automatically delivered directly to your place of residence without a price tag, servitude, or debt of any kind. This includes whatever people need such as housing, clothing, education, health care, entertainment, etc.
Raw materials for products can be transported directly to manufacturing facilities by automated transportation "sequences" using boats, monorails, mag-lev trains, pipelines, and pneumatic tubes. An automated, computerized inventory system would integrate the distribution centers and manufacturing facilities, coordinating production to meet demand. In this way, a balanced-load economy can be maintained. Shortages, over-runs, and waste could be eliminated. Eventually goods and services will be mass-produced in such abundance as to be too cheap to monitor.
Today there is more than 75% waste in the production of material goods. In a resource-based economy, all waste would be recycled. A priority would be designing things of the highest quality so that products would last longer and require little or no service. Many electronic parts will use plug-in components for convenient repair. There would be no planned obsolescence just to sell the latest designs or fashions. This would eliminate considerable waste. (...)
What is the approach to professionals running this new society?Besides computerized centers throughout the communities where products would eventually be displayed, there will be 3-D, flat-screen imaging in each home. If you desire an item, an order can be placed and the item automatically delivered directly to your place of residence without a price tag, servitude, or debt of any kind. This includes whatever people need such as housing, clothing, education, health care, entertainment, etc.
Raw materials for products can be transported directly to manufacturing facilities by automated transportation "sequences" using boats, monorails, mag-lev trains, pipelines, and pneumatic tubes. An automated, computerized inventory system would integrate the distribution centers and manufacturing facilities, coordinating production to meet demand. In this way, a balanced-load economy can be maintained. Shortages, over-runs, and waste could be eliminated. Eventually goods and services will be mass-produced in such abundance as to be too cheap to monitor.
Today there is more than 75% waste in the production of material goods. In a resource-based economy, all waste would be recycled. A priority would be designing things of the highest quality so that products would last longer and require little or no service. Many electronic parts will use plug-in components for convenient repair. There would be no planned obsolescence just to sell the latest designs or fashions. This would eliminate considerable waste. (...)
Many of the professions familiar to us today will eventually be phased out. With the rate of change now taking place, a vast array of occupations will become obsolete and disappear. In a society that applies a systems approach, these professions will be replaced by interdisciplinary teams - the systems analysts, computer programmers, operation researchers, and those who link the world together in vast communications networks.
We have the skills and the knowledge to apply interdisciplinary teams to problems. However, only in times of war or national emergencies do we call upon and assemble interdisciplinary teams to help find workable solutions to social problems. If we mobilize the same resources for our social problems as we do during a war, beneficial effects on a large scale can be achieved in a relatively short amount of time. This could easily be accomplished by utilizing many of our universities' training facilities and staffs to best determine possible alternative methods to solve these problems.
Will there be a government?We have the skills and the knowledge to apply interdisciplinary teams to problems. However, only in times of war or national emergencies do we call upon and assemble interdisciplinary teams to help find workable solutions to social problems. If we mobilize the same resources for our social problems as we do during a war, beneficial effects on a large scale can be achieved in a relatively short amount of time. This could easily be accomplished by utilizing many of our universities' training facilities and staffs to best determine possible alternative methods to solve these problems.
As to the need for government, only during the transition from a monetary based society to a cybernated high-technological resource based economy of common heritage would it be necessary to utilize the services of systems analysts, engineers, computer programmers, etc. They will not dictate the policies or have any more advantage than other people. Their job will be to carry out the restoration of the environment to near natural conditions as possible on land and in the sea. They will also economically layout the most efficient way to manage transportation, agriculture, city planning, and production. This too is always in the process of modification and updating to fit the needs of an ever-changing civilization. There are no final frontiers.
How does The Venus Project Compare with Communism?Communism being similar to a resource-based economy or The Venus Project is an erroneous concept. Communism has money, banks, armies, police, prisons, charismatic personalities, social stratification, and is managed by appointed leaders. The Venus Project's aim is to surpass the need for the use of money. Police, prisons and the military would no longer be necessary when goods, services, healthcare, and education are available to all people. The Venus Project would replace politicians with a cybernated society in which all of the physical entities are managed and operated by computerized systems. The only region that the computers do not operate or manage is the surveillance of human beings. This would be completely unnecessary and considered socially offensive. A society that uses technology without human concern has no basis of survival. Communism has no blueprint or methodology to carry out their ideals and along with capitalism, fascism, and socialism, will ultimately go down in history as failed social experiments.
What Guarantees People The Right Of Participation?Without vested interests and the use of money, there is little to be gained by squelching opinion, falsifying information, or taking advantage of others. There are no underlying rigid social barriers limiting the participation of anyone or restraining the introduction of new ideas. The main objective is full access to information and the delivery of goods and services to all people.
Today, any child hanging out at a street corner or mall, or shooting up drugs, is a wasted life that society ultimately pays for. In a resource-based economy, there will be places for children to go, to learn, and to experiment. The more intelligent our children are, the better everyone's life will be.
What do you consider a "high standard of living", which everyone in the world is entitled to? And who is the one to decide this?Today, any child hanging out at a street corner or mall, or shooting up drugs, is a wasted life that society ultimately pays for. In a resource-based economy, there will be places for children to go, to learn, and to experiment. The more intelligent our children are, the better everyone's life will be.
In a resource-based economy many of the shortages that we have today could easily be overcome by technological ingenuity and the reduction of waste. (...)
A high standard of living would mean that all members of society would have access to all of the necessities to sustain life - medical care, education, food, clothing, housing, entertainment, leisure time and more. Man-hours could be reduced considerably until completely eliminated. By eliminating planned obsolescence and the replication of the same products by many different manufactures and by surpassing the need for advertising, sales, lawyers, business personnel, bankers and all of the other non-productive profession we could easily provide many more goods and services to all people. Today's middle class lives better than all of the kings of the past. In a resource- based economy, when the main thrust and total aim of science and innovative technology are directed towards a higher standard of living for all, our life style could far surpass anything imagined today.
Will people who do more work, such as doctors, demand more resources then someone like an artist? / Would people lose their incentive?A high standard of living would mean that all members of society would have access to all of the necessities to sustain life - medical care, education, food, clothing, housing, entertainment, leisure time and more. Man-hours could be reduced considerably until completely eliminated. By eliminating planned obsolescence and the replication of the same products by many different manufactures and by surpassing the need for advertising, sales, lawyers, business personnel, bankers and all of the other non-productive profession we could easily provide many more goods and services to all people. Today's middle class lives better than all of the kings of the past. In a resource- based economy, when the main thrust and total aim of science and innovative technology are directed towards a higher standard of living for all, our life style could far surpass anything imagined today.
When resources are available to everyone without a price tag and not rationed, human values undergo considerable change. Most of us have been indoctrinated in civilization immersed in scarcity - artificially generated with planned obsolescence. I am highly suspicious of those whose incentive is motivated by money. I also believe in the incentive system but not the shallow, self-centered incentives perpetuated by our monetary-based institutions.
There would be no need for any high stressed jobs; there could be a large enough rotation of personnel to practically eliminate any high stress jobs until they can be phased out by innovative technology.
The free-enterprise system does create incentive to achieve, however it also breeds the incentive for corruption, theft, and greed. Our aim is to encourage a new incentive system, one no longer directed toward the shallow and self-centered goals of wealth, property, and power. (...) In The Venus Project, money would not be required to help one achieve or create, as facilities would be made available to serve everyone's needs.
I worry about people whose main motivation is money. For instance, if this is the motivation of a doctor instead of the desire to solve problems in medicine (...) the services are not very trustworthy. It is a tremendous myth perpetrated on people in a monetary system that people are mostly motivated by money to achieve and produce. I could give you endless examples of people who fought, studied, created, and excelled without the allure of money as a reward, there are much more meaningful rewards than that. It depends on the value system that one is given and the culture that one is raised in that reinforces what is meant by a reward.
There would be no need for any high stressed jobs; there could be a large enough rotation of personnel to practically eliminate any high stress jobs until they can be phased out by innovative technology.
The free-enterprise system does create incentive to achieve, however it also breeds the incentive for corruption, theft, and greed. Our aim is to encourage a new incentive system, one no longer directed toward the shallow and self-centered goals of wealth, property, and power. (...) In The Venus Project, money would not be required to help one achieve or create, as facilities would be made available to serve everyone's needs.
I worry about people whose main motivation is money. For instance, if this is the motivation of a doctor instead of the desire to solve problems in medicine (...) the services are not very trustworthy. It is a tremendous myth perpetrated on people in a monetary system that people are mostly motivated by money to achieve and produce. I could give you endless examples of people who fought, studied, created, and excelled without the allure of money as a reward, there are much more meaningful rewards than that. It depends on the value system that one is given and the culture that one is raised in that reinforces what is meant by a reward.