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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 2:09:21 GMT -5
Post by newschooled on Apr 6, 2010 2:09:21 GMT -5
The idea of an personified omnipotent being (AKA: Bearded dude in the sky who can do ANYTHING) has been it's own philosophical debate for literally thousands of years, right down to the theory of whether or not omnipotence itself is even possible.
A couple examples: "If God can do anything, Can God make a rock so big even God can't lift it?" or "Can God be a perfect square and a perfect circle at the same time?"
Discuss.
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 2:22:48 GMT -5
Post by bunnyfulwanderer on Apr 6, 2010 2:22:48 GMT -5
Purly speaking let me be the first to say that I have always supported the idea that the christian tri-omni god is literally impossible. and I take the problem of evil as a serious concern. (hence why I'm not a christian)
but let me put it another way. in the question of "can god make a boulder so heavy he can not lift it" it presents a problem in and of itself.
if he can he has a physical limitation if he can't he has a creative limitation.
either way, he can't be all powerful.
if we take biblical text literally we can easily find actions that were less then "all good"
and there were times when god was cuaght off guard (isn't he supposed to know everything?), so he can't be all knowing either.
this isn't meant to pick apart anyones faith. but it always stuck me as odd.
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 3:08:00 GMT -5
Post by stephen5000 on Apr 6, 2010 3:08:00 GMT -5
in the question of "can god make a boulder so heavy he can not lift it" it presents a problem in and of itself. if he can he has a physical limitation if he can't he has a creative limitation. either way, he can't be all powerful. Trying to explain God's actions and abilities with imperfect human logic seems futile (and blasphemous). God's own perfect logic alone can explain God's perfection. But such perfect logic could never be put in terms us puny humans could understand.
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 3:23:52 GMT -5
Post by bunnyfulwanderer on Apr 6, 2010 3:23:52 GMT -5
Well I'm sorry you feel that way. But the truth is "flawed human logic" is all we have, it's the closest we can get to the truth, so if you want to argue that I'm a blasphemer go ahead, and if I'm unable to get to the truth. I guess that's alright too...
but I will say as far as the other side is concerned. we do have to define "all powerful" if it means literally capable of all things, then my argument stands, if it means capable of all possible things, then sure. god can do all possible things. if he can't do something maybe that thing was impossible.
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 3:40:12 GMT -5
Post by stephen5000 on Apr 6, 2010 3:40:12 GMT -5
Well I'm sorry you feel that way. But the truth is "flawed human logic" is all we have, it's the closest we can get to the truth, so if you want to argue that I'm a blasphemer go ahead, and if I'm unable to get to the truth. I guess that's alright too... Well, I was playing Devil's Advocate (or is that God's Advocate in this case ), but there still is a point. How much power does God have? Can God just do anything physically possible, or can he break the laws of physics? And if he can break the laws of physics, why wouldn't he be able to break the laws of logic as well? If God is beyond physics, is there some sort of hyperphysical world in which he resides, or is he completely unrestrained by any external laws, and if so what would that mean? Clearly, God being omnipotent raises a lot of questions (including what omnipotence itself actually means) , but does it really narrow down what exactly God is?
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 11:11:59 GMT -5
Post by bunnyfulwanderer on Apr 6, 2010 11:11:59 GMT -5
Well I'm sorry you feel that way. But the truth is "flawed human logic" is all we have, it's the closest we can get to the truth, so if you want to argue that I'm a blasphemer go ahead, and if I'm unable to get to the truth. I guess that's alright too... Well, I was playing Devil's Advocate (or is that God's Advocate in this case ), but there still is a point. How much power does God have? Can God just do anything physically possible, or can he break the laws of physics? And if he can break the laws of physics, why wouldn't he be able to break the laws of logic as well? If God is beyond physics, is there some sort of hyperphysical world in which he resides, or is he completely unrestrained by any external laws, and if so what would that mean? Clearly, God being omnipotent raises a lot of questions (including what omnipotence itself actually means) , but does it really narrow down what exactly God is? I figured that. I just played along. well there are ideas like a square circle, becuase squares and circles are ideas, mathematical geometric shapes. he can only alter our understanding he can't make a truly square circles based upon our current logic without infringing upon our thought process somehow. some might argue that god lives on some crazy distant plane of reality and therefore can make one, but showing us one would make our heads explode or something. well if god was all powerful he could let us see it too. so I guess that goes back to my last point. we need to first define "all powerful" I personally think it to be "capable of all things"
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 11:26:10 GMT -5
Post by newschooled on Apr 6, 2010 11:26:10 GMT -5
WOW just had a crazy thought - Why would God have limited our understanding and intelligence capabilities?
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Nakor
Star
Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 11:38:37 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on Apr 6, 2010 11:38:37 GMT -5
Frankly, while I believe it is quite possible for a universe with different basic laws do exist (we even know that in our universe a few of the numbers we thought to be 'constants' are actually very, very slowly changing), I don't think it would be possible in any sort of existence for a contradiction to exist in reality. It would be pretty silly to presume that God could create a rock that he couldn't lift but at the same time believe that he could lift it. I suppose it depends on how you define omnipotent after that.
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 11:41:31 GMT -5
Post by zAkAtAk on Apr 6, 2010 11:41:31 GMT -5
I don't understand the first post at all.
Frankly, if you believe that there is a supreme being that can do whatever the hell he wants, sure why not.
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 15:39:58 GMT -5
Post by stephen5000 on Apr 6, 2010 15:39:58 GMT -5
WOW just had a crazy thought - Why would God have limited our understanding and intelligence capabilities? To test our faith? lol
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 15:41:49 GMT -5
Post by Lex on Apr 6, 2010 15:41:49 GMT -5
WOW just had a crazy thought - Why would God have limited our understanding and intelligence capabilities? To test our faith? lol The same reason why God put the dinosaur fossils in the ground. lol.
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 15:42:01 GMT -5
Post by Johncoyne on Apr 6, 2010 15:42:01 GMT -5
WOW just had a crazy thought - Why would God have limited our understanding and intelligence capabilities? To make it so no one could ever be Him. Read the Tower of Babel from the Old Testament. It kinda sums it up.
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TsukikoSuoh
Meteor
Slytherin. And proud of it.
Posts: 50
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 15:47:39 GMT -5
Post by TsukikoSuoh on Apr 6, 2010 15:47:39 GMT -5
Honestly, in my opinion I think that there COULD be a higher power, but in all honesty- if we were meant to know who it was, we would know. If there is a higher power, even it has to have limitations as all things do, because nothing's perfect, but whether we as humans can fathom those limitations is the true question.
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 15:47:58 GMT -5
Post by newschooled on Apr 6, 2010 15:47:58 GMT -5
The same reason why God put the dinosaur fossils in the ground. lol. Oh man, going off on that tangent - I have a super duper creationst in law who very much believes that man and dinosaur co existed 3000 years ago. I love to derail his train of thought by asking "So how come we've never found a human skeleton inside a dinosaur skeleton?"...To which the usual response is "It would be a crime against God." So based on that, it's pretty easy to deduce that any predatory animal that has ever eaten a human is of the devil. I think.
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 16:00:19 GMT -5
Post by metallica210 on Apr 6, 2010 16:00:19 GMT -5
god is NOT perfect.
in the begining, god created man as his self image, right?
a little while later, god realized that humans where selfish and evil.
he killed all of them. but noah and his wife, and the rest of them animals.
if he killed his own self image because they where too selfish and evil, what does that say about him?
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 16:11:34 GMT -5
Post by stephen5000 on Apr 6, 2010 16:11:34 GMT -5
god is NOT perfect. in the begining, god created man as his self image, right? a little while later, god realized that humans where selfish and evil. he killed all of them. but noah and his wife, and the rest of them animals. if he killed his own self image because they where too selfish and evil, what does that say about him? That he's a prick?
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 16:24:06 GMT -5
Post by Lex on Apr 6, 2010 16:24:06 GMT -5
God isn't perfect. I think She makes some horrendous mistakes sometimes.
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 18:04:04 GMT -5
Post by stephen5000 on Apr 6, 2010 18:04:04 GMT -5
God isn't perfect. I think She makes some horrendous mistakes sometimes. Well you would expect any superpowerful superintelligent being to make mistakes. Really, only unintelligent things don't. fyi, talking about God being imperfect and making mistakes and then suddenly referring to God as female seems kind of sexist. (though I'm sure that wasn't your intent)
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 18:06:09 GMT -5
Post by Lex on Apr 6, 2010 18:06:09 GMT -5
God isn't perfect. I think She makes some horrendous mistakes sometimes. Well you would expect any superpowerful superintelligent being to make mistakes. Really, only unintelligent things don't. fyi, talking about God being imperfect and making mistakes and then suddenly referring to God as female seems kind of sexist. (though I'm sure that wasn't your intent) No, no, no. It's a reference to Dan's videos where he always refers to God as a She.
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GOD
Apr 6, 2010 22:28:24 GMT -5
Post by Benyamin on Apr 6, 2010 22:28:24 GMT -5
god is NOT perfect. in the begining, god created man as his self image, right? a little while later, god realized that humans where selfish and evil. he killed all of them. but noah and his wife, and the rest of them animals. if he killed his own self image because they where too selfish and evil, what does that say about him? That he's a prick? Couldn't self image be defined several different ways? Right now you're using it to mean just about exactly alike. But it could mean physical also. And about the rock thing, I just thought he's, well, God, so he could do that if he wanted to.
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