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Post by newschooled on Apr 27, 2010 11:00:29 GMT -5
rialvestro, you are mixing two ideas, abortion and stem cell research are two different things. Stem cell research does not need killing a baby to get the cells. The cells can be collected during the birth, and then when that is done, they can be "farmed" in a lab. If that's true then why was it allover the news and media that stem cells came from aborted fetuses? I was even taught in high school about it that the stem cells in aborted fetuses could be used to replicate human organs. And I'm not sure why but this same subject even came up at work a few weeks ago. Once a baby is fully developed at birth their stem cells if they even have any at that point can't be used for research. It's not two different things because stem cells are collected from aborted fetuses not live babies as you sugested. That used to be the case when the technology was archaic a few years back. (Not to mention that many right wing campaigns LOVE to hold on to that horror story tactic.) Nowadays stem cells can be collected from menstrual blood. If any schools or institutions are still teaching that obtaining stem cells harms anybody, they are just plain wrong.
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Post by rialvestro on Apr 27, 2010 11:08:38 GMT -5
If that's true then why was it allover the news and media that stem cells came from aborted fetuses? I was even taught in high school about it that the stem cells in aborted fetuses could be used to replicate human organs. And I'm not sure why but this same subject even came up at work a few weeks ago. Once a baby is fully developed at birth their stem cells if they even have any at that point can't be used for research. It's not two different things because stem cells are collected from aborted fetuses not live babies as you sugested. That used to be the case when the technology was archaic a few years back. (Not to mention that many right wing campaigns LOVE to hold on to that horror story tactic.) Nowadays stem cells can be collected from menstrual blood. If any schools or institutions are still teaching that obtaining stem cells harms anybody, they are just plain wrong. Well I guess I'm just not up to date on current news then. I did graduate from high school in 2004 so I don't know if they're still teaching that.
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Post by krzych32 on Apr 27, 2010 12:34:44 GMT -5
newschooled, ok, here is how it works. You CAN get the stem cells from the aborted embroy, but that's not the only way you can get them. When a baby is born, it does not have any stem cells, but the blood that its covered with is full of them, and after colecting that they can be farmed in a lab for more.
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TheIslander
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From a Land Surrounded by Sea.
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Post by TheIslander on Apr 27, 2010 12:54:50 GMT -5
This has nothing to do with abortion or stem cell research.
Parents are allowed to keep their children away from medicine as much as they are allowed to splash holy water on them and call them christian. Let them do what they want with their kids - it isn't worth spending money prosecuting them for manslaughter, when they aren't really harm to people outside their family.
and prosecuting doctors for patients which died is stupid, sick people die - why prosecute the ones who tried to help you?
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Post by newschooled on Apr 27, 2010 12:56:34 GMT -5
newschooled, ok, here is how it works. You CAN get the stem cells from the aborted embroy, but that's not the only way you can get them. When a baby is born, it does not have any stem cells, but the blood that its covered with is full of them, and after colecting that they can be farmed in a lab for more. Yeah I know that. I was saying that now, they can ALSO collect them from menstrual blood too. No pregnancy required.
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Apr 27, 2010 15:24:46 GMT -5
Wow, I'd never heard of that. So pretty much any adult woman can help out now eh? Last I'd heard they were still using umbilical cords from births, if I have that right. (With the parents' permission I believe.)
But yes, this thread is intended to be about parents who knowingly refuse to allow their children to have medical care that has almost a guarantee of success for a condition that has almost a guarantee of death for the child. And that, to me, is utterly intolerable.
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Post by bombmaniac on Apr 28, 2010 1:33:00 GMT -5
personally i dont understand why this is a thread...there cannot possibly be an argument pro. any parent who uses religion against medicine is a moron and deserves to die. "god will decide if he wants the kid to live, god will make him better"
GOD GAVE YOU THE FUCKING MEDICINE YOU FUCKING DOUCHE MOTHERFUCKERS, USE THE FUCKIN STUFF!!!
END OF THREAD!
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Post by rialvestro on Apr 28, 2010 7:55:44 GMT -5
personally i dont understand why this is a thread...there cannot possibly be an argument pro. any parent who uses religion against medicine is a moron and deserves to die. "god will decide if he wants the kid to live, god will make him better" GOD GAVE YOU THE FUCKING MEDICINE YOU FUCKING DOUCHE MOTHERFUCKERS, USE THE FUCKIN STUFF!!! END OF THREAD! I'm not saying this because I don't believe in God even though I don't. If you wanna believe in God, that's up to you but why in the hell are you giving him credit for something he didn't do? Medicine and other medical practices were developed by man, people, humans, with no help what so ever from God. It's not a miracle from heaven, it's alot of hard work right here on Earth. I'm saying this because I think it's demeaning to the people that actully did the work to give the credit to some God you can't even prove exsists. Again if you want to believe he's real that's fine but even if he is real he still has not done a damn thing to advance medical science.
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Post by newschooled on Apr 28, 2010 15:33:28 GMT -5
personally i dont understand why this is a thread...there cannot possibly be an argument pro. any parent who uses religion against medicine is a moron and deserves to die. "god will decide if he wants the kid to live, god will make him better" GOD GAVE YOU THE FUCKING MEDICINE YOU FUCKING DOUCHE MOTHERFUCKERS, USE THE FUCKIN STUFF!!! END OF THREAD! This reminds me of a joke (I'll keep it as short as I can) A guy falls off a boat in the middle of the ocean. A boat comes by, and the deckhands are about to rescue him, until he says "Leave me, God will save me.". Then another boat comes by. Same thing. And again, once more. Finally, the man drowns and goes to heaven. He asked God "Why didn't you save me?" to which the Almighty replied "I SENT YOU THREE ****ING BOATS!!!"
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Cortney
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[AWD:0c15]The Objectioner
The Bown
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Post by Cortney on Apr 28, 2010 15:44:30 GMT -5
Cortney, so you think that this is evil but abortion is okey? I really don't see that much of a difference. That was my point. If the religious folk are going to say abortion is evil, then they can't say killing their kids like this is NOT evil. Either neither are, or they both are. I don't particularly LIKE what they're doing, but I'm not going to force them to have their children treated.
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Post by krzych32 on Apr 28, 2010 23:04:22 GMT -5
Cortney, so you think that this is evil but abortion is okey? I really don't see that much of a difference. That was my point. If the religious folk are going to say abortion is evil, then they can't say killing their kids like this is NOT evil. Either neither are, or they both are. I don't particularly LIKE what they're doing, but I'm not going to force them to have their children treated. Ok, two things: 1. I am not disagreeing with your first sentence , I find both situations as evil (no going to argue abortion here) 2. I do disagree with your second sentence, in my opinion, when you see evil, it is your responsibility to change it.
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Post by rialvestro on Apr 29, 2010 12:30:30 GMT -5
There is actully a huge difference that you're overlooking.
When it comes to abortion we know for a fact that the kid is 100% going to die.
When it comes to refuseing treatment of any kind we don't know 100% for sure if the child will die without it.
With treatment there's still a chance of death anyway durring treatment.
We don't know for sure if a child would survive birth, there's complications that could happen that may kill the kid without abortion.
So out of the 4 there's only 1 that is without doubt going to cause death.
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Post by bombmaniac on Apr 29, 2010 12:47:37 GMT -5
i believe in god, i believe everything is from god, so while its true god didnt send down pills from heaven i believe he gave us the means to formulate the medicines we need. besides, my argument was basically against the people who would let their kids die, i was saying "you know, god gave us the means to make medicine, youre praying for him to help you, but he already gave you the cure"
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Apr 29, 2010 13:25:44 GMT -5
@rivalestro: That may be true in some cases, but frankly there are still a lot of kids who are situations were we DO know they will die without treatment -- no question -- and the treatment in question has a >99% success rate.
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Post by rialvestro on Apr 29, 2010 15:42:21 GMT -5
@rivalestro: That may be true in some cases, but frankly there are still a lot of kids who are situations were we DO know they will die without treatment -- no question -- and the treatment in question has a >99% success rate. Yeah, and what about that other 1% If you abort a child it dies. If you don't there's still a chance it could die but complications like that are rare. However in this case, abortion is most definatly murder because you're causeing the death to happen. Complications, unless drugs were involved, no one caused to happen if they happen at all. Now when it comes to a sick child. If you die due to lack of treatment, that's a natural cause of death. No one killed the child but the illness. If they are treated and the 1% chance of failer happens, then the cause of death is the treatment. If anyone was going to be accused of murder it would be the doctor. Personally I would much rather take the natural death than to risk even that 1% chance of death at the hands of some doctor. If it was my child, I wouldn't make the choice for them either, not unless they couldn't communicate on their own. If my child wants to take that risk it's up to them, if not I'm not going to force them into it. It's not murder if I didn't cause it. If anything doctors are murders. They may in fact be trying to help and they may not of intentionally caused any deaths but they have in fact caused deaths to happen every time a treatment fails. The only way a parent could be blamed for murder is if they some how caused their child to get sick in the first place not if they refused treatment to a sickness they had no control over.
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Post by bombmaniac on Apr 30, 2010 4:16:03 GMT -5
to anyone who argues pro in this debate...i hope i see you get hit by a car, fly through the air, hear your screams of shock, surprise, and agony as you float through the air, and hear the thud and crunch as you land on the pavement and your bones shatter. then i hope i see you begin to bleed out of many gaping wounds, and out of every orifice, and i hope you begin coughing up your own blood. i hope you cry out desperately for help with your last breath as you lay there on the pavement dying a gruesome death, because i will stand there and do nothing to help you. i will do nothing to alleviate your pain. i will do nothing to save your life. i will pull up a chair, eat some popcorn, drink some soda, and enjoy the spectacle. after you have perished i will make a celebration. it will be a joyous feast. and i will enjoy every second of it.
to anyone who thought this post was twisted, i hope you got my point.
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RabbitWho
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Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
Posts: 808
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 30, 2010 4:45:33 GMT -5
Now that's not exactly the same thing, you're not allowed to do nothing to help me, you have to pray with all your heart and spirit and soul. Maybe you believe that's the same as doing nothing.. so for you it would be murder, but these unfortunate people believe it's the same as doing everything in the world. The fact is the parents are so brainwashed that what people are saying about 100% mortality rate is irrelevant to them, because they believe that because their child is good and god loves him as much as they do... that god could never possibly let the child die. It's too late to send them to prison after, what's the good in punishing them? Loosing a child is the worst thing anyone can go through, sending them to prison will barely be a distraction from that hell. I don't think we should send anyone at all to prison if our only reason to is punish them. However we have to make sure this person doesn't do it again, we have to make sure people don't think they can get away with letting children die and most of all we have to keep dangerous people away from innocents. I agree with pretty much everything else you say though. you can't deter someone from committing a crime they have no idea they are committing. The people feel sure the child will be fine. Believe me having the child die would be the ultimate deterant of people thought that was even the remotest possibility . As I said before there are some people who will reluctantly but acceptingly let their child die because it's "gods will" and these people should go to prison for letting someone else murder their child. But the people who honestly think the child is going to be okay, there's no fix for that. We need to get to them before the child gets sick. Or We need to get to the child and force treatment. Afterwards it doesn't matter what we do. If we could just get them to believe that god made man and gave man the ability to understand some parts of his world so that we could help each other (which we were all told to do as much as possible in the bible and the sacred books of most religions) then we could prevent it.
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Post by bombmaniac on Apr 30, 2010 4:50:39 GMT -5
thats criminal stupidity not religious piety. i am a religious person and i know its bull. it is what is called a fools piety. fools piety is in no way commendable and should not be tolerated. anyone who stands by as their child dies should be at the very least jailed if not sentenced to death. there is absolutely no excuse for it. if i truly believe that rape is good and beneficial and will cleanse a person spiritually i would still be just as wrong and guilty as a rapist who does it for kicks. suicide bombers are just as wrong as regular killers even though their murder is fueled by religious ideas. religion cannot be used as an excuse for wrongdoing. plain and simple.
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RabbitWho
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Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 30, 2010 4:56:17 GMT -5
Did I say it was commendable or that it should be tolerated?
Okay so jail them, but don't think that that is a punishment to someone who has lost a child, because it's nothing. It's like spanking a child who has shot himself in the foot. I think they would be delighted with a death sentence because they would get to see their child again or just stop living, without the sin of suicide.
I think we are saying the same things except that your words are fueled with hatred and anger.
I don't think it matters a damn what happens after the child is dead because you can't punish people who are in that situation because they're already in so much pain and you can't deter other people because they think anyone loved by god is safe.
But what happens before hand counts. If people invested the energy the spend talking about punishment into spreading awareness then maybe they could actually save a life.
What could we do to encourage people to use medicine? I guess nothing because most of us like to hide behind our computers and if you don't like medicine you probably don't like the internet.
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Post by bombmaniac on Apr 30, 2010 5:02:26 GMT -5
unless youre a catholic priest who sees nothing wrong with raping little boys...
i think getting sent to jail, getting butt raped by some huge criminal who looks for the first opportunity to pounce as the guy drops his soap would change a person's mind on killing kids...
as for someone being in too much pain to be jailed...thats just stupid, suppose i robbed a house and shot myself in the process i shouldnt be jailed? thats ridiculous!
as for helping them because they want to die anyway...i suppose you would never kill a terrorist...interesting policy...
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