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Post by Ryan on May 24, 2010 15:47:30 GMT -5
Please look @ The wiki article on wormholes and especially how they would 'look' (the image below) Wormholes are not black holes - and my logic from prior is supported. Please note - wormholes are hypothetical just like faster than light travel and time travel along with almost everything else in this thread - so evidence supporting hypothetical claims is limited. Mathematics and physics support wormholes and the time travel they would allow, they have simply never been observed. The point of the thread, is not how time travel would happen if it could (time dilation, wormholes, destruction/recreation/transformation of matter, any other possible ideas) but was instead to look at what would happen if one were to time travel. Please return to the first page, look at the ideas there (because they are more on topic) and please post your opinions for/against/or differing from any that might have been listed before.
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Post by krzych32 on May 24, 2010 16:36:33 GMT -5
I think that "what if" and "how" are not that different from one another, I can't discuss "what if" if the laws of physics don't provide us with "how", then the whole discussion doesn't have a point because there is no "what if".
IF we accept the idea of a wormhole, and that's a big IF, it still doesn't provide us with what we need to time travel. If the plain represents space, and the 4th dimention (in the picture 3rd) is time, what it basically states is that we can travel in space using less time. To me this can actually be achieaved by traveling close to the speed of light, when time for a traveler slows down, this making if seem from his perspective that he is traveling faster then the speed of light, but really not traveling faster then the light ifself. Still, that is a way to use time to travel in space, not the other way around.
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Post by krzych32 on May 24, 2010 16:46:06 GMT -5
Lyserg Zeroz, I see your reasoning here, but let me show you what I mean in the perspective. When I have trouble understanding something that works only in theory, what I do is imagin the same thing on a larger scale, this helps me understand physic, economics and stuff that we cant really experience. Now lets state a couple of facts, matter can't be created or destroyed. What this basically means, after taking out all of the "what if's" is that when you take all of the matter and all of the energy in the Universe, the amount will never change. Ok, now lets send a single ideam back in time 1 day, if I can do that, I can send the entire universe back in time 1 day. Now what we have is a Universe twice as large as it was before, thus breaking the laws of physics. The basic idea is that the Universe can't change its valume, and time travel breaks that law.
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Post by Ryan on May 24, 2010 17:34:44 GMT -5
in the picture, the plane represents space-time, a 2d fabric that makes up all of space AND time, folding it as shown would not only allow travel over great 3d distances, but over 4d distances as well (through time), please read the wiki article, it is all very clearly explained in there.
Answering a what if does not require that the 'if' be a possibility, that's why its a WHAT if.
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Post by Lyserg Zeroz on May 24, 2010 19:57:09 GMT -5
Wow, krzych32, good point 0.0. But we should also establish how it would work (alternate universes or linear timeline)... althou according to what you said neither is accetable...also if I were to send something back in time I would have two of those things, but then I would send one of those (because if I already did it on the future I should do it again on the future) and then I would have 3 and then ...GAAAAAAAAAh... anyways that it's suppose to be impossible, so why to bother thinking abot that part of time traveling ...
@tyme Well that's an analogy 0.0. And also, in the wiki article says that time travel would be by time dilation, not awesome 4D folding to travel anywhere on time D= (or that's what I get from it, I really don't gully understand it). But you're right we should stick to the topic xD and just accept the "if this and that was possible".
Dmn, it's hard to explain this kind of stuff but I'll try: If time was completely linear I think we would still have "free will" even if our decisions were already made, we made them with free will and... well there's kind of a circular thing going on there. I actually would have to support multi-verse thing here. If you send someone back in time, in a universe where all time happens simultaneously then this happens: Steve, from 2200 goes back in time, just to wander around, to 2190. Steve22 decides to stay there (then there are 2 Steves on 2190). Steve21 grows into Steve22-B and goes back in time (because as time is completely linear Steve22's travel in time did not change the fact that Steve21 will grow and travel back in time...again). Once Steve22-B goes back in time to 2190 there will be 3 Steves, Steve22, Steve22-B and Steve21, and so on and on, more Steves travel back in time. BUT WAIT all of this has already happened, ergo, there's an infinite amount of Steve22s wandering in 2190. So yeah, Steve will rule the world.
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Post by Ryan on May 24, 2010 20:25:07 GMT -5
Not exactly.
Using your analogy:
Steve 22 goes back in time to 2190, now there are 2 Steves in 2190, Steve22 and Steve21. 10 years pass because no time travel has happened. Now there are 2 Steves in 2200. Steve21 goes back in time in the year 2200, Steve22 does not. So Steve21, who has grown into and replaces the original Steve22, goes back in time to 2190 and takes the place of the original Steve22 in 2190, while there is a Steve21B in 2190. Steve22 in 2200 after the first go around, continues on with the timeline.
he could also travel back in time with Steve21 (the original), thus duplicating the number of Steves in 2190. If he does this, then there will be 3 Steves in 2190.
Assume that the original Steve22 is 30 years old.
He travels back in time to 2190 where he can meet the original Steve21. Steve21 is 20 in 2190. By 2200, Steve21 has turned 30, and goes back in time to 2190 (like the original Steve22, his timeline unchanged) Steve22 is now 40, should he choose to go back, he can make the number of Steves in 2190 to be 3, but in 2190 - there's a 20 yo Steve, a 30 yo Steve and a 40 yo Steve. Hardly the same Steve.
While the cycle could hypothetically continue in an infinite circle, generating an infinite number of Steves, eventually Steve (the very original) will die, and the cycle will cease to grow. Really it's up to Steve if he wants to continue the cycle, but each previous steve, will be caught in the cycle, unable to move on.
If a 'past' steve (one not the original) were to branch off from the cycle, and not go back in time, he would also cease the cycle from continuing, thus dramatically cutting off how many Steves are stuck in the loop.
The thing is, it's a loop, in order to be an infinite loop, it must have infinite food in a sense (we must keep feeding the original Steve into the loop).
Follow? It's weird to explain b/c its all steve..
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Post by Lyserg Zeroz on May 24, 2010 20:43:32 GMT -5
No, no, you got me wrong D= If Future has already happened, then Steve22 has already made his travel in time. This would mean that when Steve 22 travels back in time to encounter Steve 22-0 from a future prior to Steve22's and to encounter Steve21. What I mean is, when Steve21 grows into Steve22-B and travels back in time he would encounter all other Steves22s, including Steve22("original"), this, not depending on whether the "original" Steve22 decided to go back in time.
When Steve22-B goes back in time, in 2190 would be 2 Steves (since we're talking about time without alternate time-lines Steve22 is also there because he already had traveled). (I'm really confused right now and have started to agree with your point, which seems to require multi-verse stuff so there's a 2190 in which there's only one Steve and one where there is 2 or more, but maybe doesn't, but let's continue) Let's say that Steve22(all of them) decided to go back to 2190 at 2:00 PM April 1st. This would mean that when we reach 2190 April 1st, at 2:00 PM, suddenly infinite Steves would appear at the same time.
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Post by krzych32 on May 24, 2010 23:27:55 GMT -5
But isn't traveling in paraler Univesrses different then traveling in time? You don't really travel in time, just go to another plain of existance that looks the same as your past. You would have greater possibility landing in a Universe where the only color is green, then in a universe that looks EXACTLY the same as your past. Just wanted to throw that out there. Ryan, going back to your picture, if space and time are the plain, then tell me what is the extra dimension that the Universe is being folded upon?
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Post by Ryan on May 25, 2010 1:09:28 GMT -5
space-time is a 2d theoretical fabric that folds through a higher dimension (there are 10 supported by string theory - it's not a stretch to fold the lesser ones)
and Lyserg, try to imagine the age of each steve and you'll see that they can't form an infinite loop, keep in mind - even with time travel, you still age as if you were on a regular timeline (twin paradox).
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Post by Kevak on May 25, 2010 11:25:52 GMT -5
This is an interesting theory on time travel:
I got this from Mickey Mouse cartoons. Mickey travels trough time in these time travel episodes, and every time he changes something, it is changed SO that things come that way.
So that even though you went back in time and changed something, they we're ment to do it all along. Fate, you might call it. This theory has it's flaws thought, it can be easily proven wrong. I.e. you go back in time and kill your grandfather. Nothing to do there. But maybe fate does it so, that you don't ever think of that, or are somehow unable.
If this theory is right, that would imply that we may have had visitors already. They have somehow managed to stay out of sight..
well anyway. that's just one theory.
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Post by Ryan on May 25, 2010 15:32:49 GMT -5
that's basically my same theory kevak, if you were to somehow go back in time and 'change' something, then you had already gone back in time and changed it, which is why your timeline is the way it is.
People trying to prove this theory wrong could say "well I could go back in time and kill my previous self" but if my theory is correct, then you couldn't actually do such an act. (the time traveling butterfly effect says if you killed your past self, then there wouldn't be a future you to go back in time to kill yourself, so you would stay alive in the past.)
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Post by Lyserg Zeroz on May 25, 2010 16:16:15 GMT -5
Tyme, I know what you're trying to say, but it's not the point. OK, Steve 21 has 30 and Steve22 has 40. Steve22 travels back in time to April 1st, 2:00Pm. When he arrives he sits on a chair next to Steve21 (who is 30 years old). After that, Steve22 continues his life without ever traveling in time again. And besides when talking about April 1st, at 2:00 PM, we would not mention him ever again. Steve21 becomes Steve22-Nº2(40 years old) and travels back in time to 2190, there he encounters Steve 21-Nº2(30 years old), and Steve22(40 years old) sitting on a chair next to Steve21-Nº2. And he also sits on a chair, next to Steve 21-Nº2. So we have Steve21-Nº2 (30) and Both Steves22s (both 40 years old).
The point is, There is 2 Steves on 2190 April the 1st, 2:00PM, when one of them grows up to travel back in time, there would still be the original 2 Steves there, but now add the one that just arrived, meaning that now there is 3 Steves, two of them of the same age.
But this process repeats itself infinite times at the same time, filling the universe with Steves.
Let's do another example. Steve21 has one muffin. He wants 2. So when he grows up, he will send one muffing back in time to himself. So Steve21 grows into Steve22 and sends one muffin back in time. The next Steve21 has now 2 muffins. When he grows up he WILL send one back in time again so the next Steve21 has now 3, because according to the unchanging-linear-with no possible alternate time lines theory he will have no choice. Wait Actually There is a hole on that theory/example: If Steve21 has one muffin at april the 1st, 2:00PM, he will never have 2 of them at that same time, because time can't change...so... well the point is that it can't happen without alternate timelines so that we can change either the past or the future.
Oh and by the way, krzych32: With alternate universes I meant alternate timelines, creating a new timeline when one travels back in time, so that 2 futures/pasts exist (using Steve and the muffin example) The one where he has one muffin and then grows up to send a muffin back in time to himself, and the one where he has 2 and doesn't send one back to himself because he doesn't need to. I don't know if alternate timelines has any scientific support, but we're working with "what if"s here, so let's not care about that.
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Post by Ryan on May 25, 2010 17:58:10 GMT -5
Ah, I see where you are getting confused. Steve22 goes back in time to 2190 (Steve22 is 40, Steve21 is 30). They continue their lives, keep in mind Steve21 is really a 10 year younger version of Steve22. When he goes back in time in 2200, he takes the place of the original Steve22. So on May 1st (not april fools) when Steve22 arrives in the past, he only meets Steve21, and no prior time-traveling versions of himself. Because only 1 Steve ever goes back in time. I've drawn a more clear picture that will help illustrate the conundrum. Let the black line represent Steve22, the original and the Red line be Steve21. At first Steve 22 travels along the straight (albeit slanted) line. In 2200 he circles back and travels to 2190 where he meets Steve21. Since Steve22 no longer timetravels, he travels in a straight line on through the rest of his future. In 2200 Steve 21, time travels back, where he will meet a past version of himself, but the original Steve22 is not there, because Steve21 IS Steve22 at that point. So, in 2190 - there are only ever 2 Steves (unless one decides to time travel again). The paradox most certainly exists, that if time travel is possible - can you affect your past self. If I have 1 muffin today, and time travel 1 muffin back a day tomorrow, will I have 2 muffins today? or 1? That would beg to question the hypotheses that Kevak and myself have postulated - how much fate would be involved in time travel, for if there was no universal shift (actually changing universes such a star trek sort of theory) then the butterfly effect would say that I always had 2 muffins - or I had 1 muffin from one means, and another from time traveling means, or I got the first muffin from the time travel means.
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Post by Lyserg Zeroz on May 25, 2010 18:21:35 GMT -5
Oh I didn't realise that I made my example on April fools xD. 0o0 Now I think I see it, I understand now ! ...Although infinite Steves would make sense if Steve22-B travels back to May 1st 2:00.000001 instead of just 2:00 ...but that was not the point so I would shut up now ;D
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Post by Ryan on May 25, 2010 20:40:35 GMT -5
You could have infinite Steves if all Steves went back in time.
Ex. Steve1 goes back 10 min, then he meets Steve2, 10 min later Steve1 and Steve2 go back 10 min and meet Steve3 (Steve2 took the place of Steve1, so there is only 1 Steve to meet 10 min ago and that's Steve3). Cycle continues indefinitely - Lots and lots of Steves.
But a single time travel experience won't create an infinite loop.
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Post by KipEnyan on May 26, 2010 17:10:59 GMT -5
krzych32 You're making a lot of claims saying this and that are bull, and saying there's no factual evidence to back them up, but you fail to take into the account quantum physics. Quantum physics and string theory have a lot of plausible explanations for things like time travel. Unless you're one of those people who discredits quantum physics due to it's theoretical nature (which is shifting to an empirical one, btw), in which case you're just a modern-day Einstein naysayer, and don't really have anything to contribute to this thread. In regards to your go-to argument of matter can neither be created nor destroyed, that law is true, WITHIN a universe. In the confines of a universe, there is no way to make more matter or make less matter. However, there is no reason that matter cannot leave or enter a universe entirely. If matter left a universe, there would simply be a vacuum in its absence, which would be quickly filled by the surrounding matter, and the matter arriving would simply displace whatever matter it encountered upon arrival. As to the two of you and your whole "Steve" dilemma, I personally think it's a moot point. Tyme, you're speaking from a philosophy called fatalism, meaning that which happens must happen, and if there are any paradoxes or contradictions with that happening, the universe will bend itself to accommodate these events. Personally, I find no credence in fatalism, because there's no evidence or even viable theory to say the universe gives a SHIRT about action. It's a rather absurd concept I think, that space-time will bend around necessitated events. Personally, I think time travel to the past is only viable through a parallel universe model, and the future is capable via that model, or via time dilation. It should be noted, that neither of which are true "time travel", it just accomplishes the same effect.
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Helmet
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Man Up By Womaning Down
Posts: 567
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Post by Helmet on May 26, 2010 18:20:50 GMT -5
I think that time travel is already "scripted" everything that happened, happened (LOST QUOTE!) you can't change time, but time can change you (SEMI OLD SONG REFERENCE!)
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