Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Apr 6, 2010 0:52:31 GMT -5
but the reality is some theists don't put science and god in opposition, many believe their god directed evolution or caused the big bang. you can't prove it wrong, and it doesn't contradict science. for all my talking about philosophy and snide remarks I want the original poster and everyone in here to know that I respect and cherish the scientific method for all it has done for advancing human technology and science. and I acknowledge how the church has slowed it down, but I guess my real point is, there is merit in many types of thinking and the sort of thought that science builds and uses is but one power of the human mind. there is also philosophy. any many other types of knowledge! personally I've always loved philosophy becuase philosophers don't mind not being right, they find merit in the journey for knowledge, not just a means to an end. Please remember, I did say in my original post: Now, before we begin, this is not an attempt to disprove the existence of gods or anything of that sort. It is intended only to show that where there is a contradiction between religion and science, that science should always be trusted. Where there is no contradiction (or at least no contradiction we are yet aware of), you are welcome to think as you'd like.
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Post by bunnyfulwanderer on Apr 6, 2010 1:08:57 GMT -5
noted. o.o; want to touch any of the ideas?
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Apr 6, 2010 1:19:07 GMT -5
I don't believe I disagree with anything you said at all, actually.
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Post by bunnyfulwanderer on Apr 6, 2010 2:16:15 GMT -5
I don't believe I disagree with anything you said at all, actually. lol :3
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Post by rialvestro on Apr 8, 2010 3:23:14 GMT -5
Personally I agree with everything the OP said but I believe there is a reason that religion exsists. However I'm rather afraid to say the full reason for fear of offending someone. What I will say is this...
Religion believes that everything happens for a reason, that there is some grand scheme that we mortals are incapable of comprehending. This gives people a sense of hope and purpos in life and makes them feel better about all the horrible things that happen in the world.
Science on the other hand would like us to believe that there is no reason, no grand scheme, that everything is totally random. This tends to make alot of people very depressed and worthless as with it they realize that nothing they do in life will ever really amount to anything.
Now some people have come to find a sense of self worth, self motivation, and are driven by neither factor but insted are just driven to accomplish whatever they can weather or not it really means anything. Unfortunatly I think this 3rd group is a minority.
I'm afraid to say any more for fear of offending someone. You can PM me if you'd like to hear the rest of my thoughts on the matter but if you do please do so with an open mind.
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Apr 8, 2010 12:01:40 GMT -5
I wouldn't say science thinks it's totally random; events in the universe can still be ordered, just ordered by their nature rather than by a god.
And I'd hesitate to say that third group is a minority. In places where I see atheists discuss things very often, I usually see a lot of people saying that since leaving religion they actually understand life better, that everything makes more sense, and that they feel a bit freer and can enjoy life a bit more. So while it's not a majority of the population by any means, I'd say a majority of atheists find their own reasons to keep on plugging away at life.
Atheists who believe that because there is no god there is no meaning -- at all -- to life are called nihilists, something that we thankfully see very little of. Nihilists are perhaps the most unpredictable sort of extremist. The worst nihilists are capable of anything from suicide to mass murder because they think it all doesn't matter. Again, thankfully very few of these.
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Post by rialvestro on Apr 8, 2010 17:26:03 GMT -5
I wouldn't say science thinks it's totally random; events in the universe can still be ordered, just ordered by their nature rather than by a god. And I'd hesitate to say that third group is a minority. In places where I see atheists discuss things very often, I usually see a lot of people saying that since leaving religion they actually understand life better, that everything makes more sense, and that they feel a bit freer and can enjoy life a bit more. So while it's not a majority of the population by any means, I'd say a majority of atheists find their own reasons to keep on plugging away at life. Atheists who believe that because there is no god there is no meaning -- at all -- to life are called nihilists, something that we thankfully see very little of. Nihilists are perhaps the most unpredictable sort of extremist. The worst nihilists are capable of anything from suicide to mass murder because they think it all doesn't matter. Again, thankfully very few of these. I wouldn't condone the use or mass murder as that would be wrong no matter what your own beliefs are. But as for taking you own life just because it doesn't matter. That's an individual's own choice. Now did you ever consider the third option, that because they don't believe their life is worth anything thoughs people may of very well fought wars over things they do believe in, a self motivating act to make their life worth living and to make their death mean something. Basically people who believe in God believe that everything happens for a reason. On the pluse side it can be good motivation for spicific individuals. On the down side this could allso mean that they never really accomplish anything as they tend to wait for God to show them the way. And even if they never accomplish anything in life they think they have because their God deemed it so. In the mind of someone who doesn't belive in God, that life has no meaning. The down side as you say is that they end their lives and others because it doesn't matter. The more positive side is that rather than looking for a greater purpos or worse waiting for a greater purpos to find you, people like myself are trying to find a not a reason, but just a goal. Something worth fighting for. While it may not matter in the grand scheme which I don't belive exsists it does matter in the hear and now and that's something I think everyone should believe in.
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Apr 8, 2010 18:24:56 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning nihilism or mass murder. Just lacking belief in an overarching meaning of life laid out for you isn't nihilism, nihilism is when you can't find any meaning to life whatsoever and you basically end up not caring one whit what happens in the real world. It probably falls under a psychiatric condition of some sort.
Anyway, my point was, the vast majority atheists find some reason or another to go on living and enjoy life. Finding a meaning in life doesn't seem to be a problem, and it seems to show religion isn't necessary for this. (Had a religious person been born in a world without religion, do we honestly think that they would be depressed that life had no meaning? It's impossible to test, but I would suspect the reliance some people have on religion for meaning in their lives came only from long term exposure to it.)
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Post by bunnyfulwanderer on Apr 9, 2010 1:04:41 GMT -5
yeah basically I think perhaps some people misunderstand the distinction between no meaning and no objective meaning.
certain faiths generally give an objective meaning which is why being given no meaning might seem the same as no meaning at all.
Some theists (particularly monotheistic faiths) tend to assert a meaning of life as "live according to the will of god" While most theists believe this is something you should do, not all or even most(I'm speaking in the sense of religions and not the number of practitioners) would say that the objective of life is to be subservient to their higher power. Once again, the powerlessness of man and the necessity of asking forgiveness and overall subservience to the higher power is a very monotheistic idea, there are many faiths that put more emphasis on empowering the self. Whether it be though knowledge, philosophy or even witchcraft
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Post by swan on Apr 9, 2010 2:42:59 GMT -5
While most theists believe this is something you should do, not all or even most(I'm speaking in the sense of religions and not the number of practitioners) would say that the objective of life is to be subservient to their higher power. Once again, the powerlessness of man and the necessity of asking forgiveness and overall subservience to the higher power is a very monotheistic idea, there are many faiths that put more emphasis on empowering the self. Whether it be though knowledge, philosophy or even witchcraft I agree. I think the problem most theists (I'm generalizing here) have with there being no objective meaning in life, is that by taking away the objectiveness you take away any possibility of absolute meaning. So there are two possible conclusions you can make 1: Life has no meaning, or 2: The meaning is subjective and the individual must discover what the meaning is. The trouble with number 2 is perhaps that it requires people to make a decision they are uncomfortable with making, maybe out of fear of being wrong or they simply do not want that much responsibility. The bottom line is that the meaning of life is whatever meaning you choose assign to it and to live life by that meaning (I think everyone does this whether or not they realize it). I should add that this is not a shot at theists, since it can apply to anyone who simply accepts something without question and doesn't think for themselves, and not all theists are "zombies" as Dan would put it.
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Post by bunnyfulwanderer on Apr 9, 2010 13:40:57 GMT -5
While most theists believe this is something you should do, not all or even most(I'm speaking in the sense of religions and not the number of practitioners) would say that the objective of life is to be subservient to their higher power. Once again, the powerlessness of man and the necessity of asking forgiveness and overall subservience to the higher power is a very monotheistic idea, there are many faiths that put more emphasis on empowering the self. Whether it be though knowledge, philosophy or even witchcraft I agree. I think the problem most theists (I'm generalizing here) have with there being no objective meaning in life, is that by taking away the objectiveness you take away any possibility of absolute meaning. So there are two possible conclusions you can make 1: Life has no meaning, or 2: The meaning is subjective and the individual must discover what the meaning is. The trouble with number 2 is perhaps that it requires people to make a decision they are uncomfortable with making, maybe out of fear of being wrong or they simply do not want that much responsibility. The bottom line is that the meaning of life is whatever meaning you choose assign to it and to live life by that meaning (I think everyone does this whether or not they realize it). I should add that this is not a shot at theists, since it can apply to anyone who simply accepts something without question and doesn't think for themselves, and not all theists are "zombies" as Dan would put it. I much agree. I've always felt meaning has to be subjective. Whether or not I believed in some form of god I had always thought that. I guess I always have felt that objective meaning belittled life's value too much, espically if that meaning is "do what you're told" in no uncertain terms. I also strongly disagree with any view that makes life out to be essentially a test.
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Silverrida
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Post by Silverrida on Apr 9, 2010 18:31:24 GMT -5
I wouldn't say science thinks it's totally random; events in the universe can still be ordered, just ordered by their nature rather than by a god. And I'd hesitate to say that third group is a minority. In places where I see atheists discuss things very often, I usually see a lot of people saying that since leaving religion they actually understand life better, that everything makes more sense, and that they feel a bit freer and can enjoy life a bit more. So while it's not a majority of the population by any means, I'd say a majority of atheists find their own reasons to keep on plugging away at life. Atheists who believe that because there is no god there is no meaning -- at all -- to life are called nihilists, something that we thankfully see very little of. Nihilists are perhaps the most unpredictable sort of extremist. The worst nihilists are capable of anything from suicide to mass murder because they think it all doesn't matter. Again, thankfully very few of these. To the first paragraph I respond with entropy. The Universe naturally wants to exist in a state of disorder, or go towards it. It is humans who put things in order. To the last paragraph, I take a large amount of offense. Nihilism can open the door to many things, such as defining life and facing it on your own terms, a branch known commonly as existentialism. I am an existentialist. And yes, although I have considered, very deeply in fact, suicide, it does not mean that I am going to destroy everything or do anything. This is because I realize that the world matters to OTHER people, and I take other people feelings into account. What you are describing with things like "mass murder" are particularly malevolent nihilists.
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Post by swan on Apr 9, 2010 19:21:17 GMT -5
To the last paragraph, I take a large amount of offense. Nihilism can open the door to many things, such as defining life and facing it on your own terms, a branch known commonly as existentialism. I am an existentialist. And yes, although I have considered, very deeply in fact, suicide, it does not mean that I am going to destroy everything or do anything. This is because I realize that the world matters to OTHER people, and I take other people feelings into account. What you are describing with things like "mass murder" are particularly malevolent nihilists. I certainly agree, however I think the type of nihilism Nakor's refering to is the more traditional view of nihilism, where the nihilist feels like has no meaning and that nothing really matters, and I think this type of view is largely worthless (since it devalues life). Nihilism in the philosophical sense is defined as "an extreme form of skepticism: the denial of all real existence or the possibility of an objective basis for truth." Now I think this definition is not worthless since it does not devalue life (although it can lead to the traditional view of nihilism).
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Apr 9, 2010 19:31:59 GMT -5
I did say "the worst nihilists," and that nihilism is unpredictable. Also, while existentialism and nihilism seem related, they are in fact totally different. Mirriam-Webster defines nihilism as "a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless," which existentialism isn't at all. Nihilism is unpredictable due to the fact that, unlike most forms of fanaticism (fundamentalism, obscurantism, terrorism), nihilism has no goal at all in mind. I guess you could think of nihilism as existentialism taken to the extreme (much like communism is socialism taken to the extreme) but I'm not sure that's even correct, as existentialism at least seeks to find morals and such within a world that has no objective meaning.
Anyone who defines life and faces it on their own terms is not a nihilist (or if they were before, they no longer are), which is a good thing. I have nothing against existentialism or existentialists.
Finally, regarding entropy, remember that because the universe is constantly expanding there is a changing, rising cap on entropy. This is why we continue to see organization to an extent (starts, planets, orbits, etc.) outside humanity's reach in the universe, and why it doesn't, at the moment at least, appear to be devolving... if I remember my sciences right. (Someone else may be better able to field that point.) Regardless, the tendency of closed systems to disorder doesn't completely exclude order within them, it merely means that the amount of order will tend to decrease over time, and in that sentence I was referring to things such as the laws of science, which provide a sort of order not touched upon by the second law of thermodynamics (which is the tendency to disorder you mention).
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Silverrida
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Post by Silverrida on Apr 9, 2010 21:15:25 GMT -5
I did say "the worst nihilists," and that nihilism is unpredictable. Also, while existentialism and nihilism seem related, they are in fact totally different. Mirriam-Webster defines nihilism as "a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless," which existentialism isn't at all. Nihilism is unpredictable due to the fact that, unlike most forms of fanaticism (fundamentalism, obscurantism, terrorism), nihilism has no goal at all in mind. I guess you could think of nihilism as existentialism taken to the extreme (much like communism is socialism taken to the extreme) but I'm not sure that's even correct, as existentialism at least seeks to find morals and such within a world that has no objective meaning. Anyone who defines life and faces it on their own terms is not a nihilist (or if they were before, they no longer are), which is a good thing. I have nothing against existentialism or existentialists. Finally, regarding entropy, remember that because the universe is constantly expanding there is a changing, rising cap on entropy. This is why we continue to see organization to an extent (starts, planets, orbits, etc.) outside humanity's reach in the universe, and why it doesn't, at the moment at least, appear to be devolving... if I remember my sciences right. (Someone else may be better able to field that point.) Regardless, the tendency of closed systems to disorder doesn't completely exclude order within them, it merely means that the amount of order will tend to decrease over time, and in that sentence I was referring to things such as the laws of science, which provide a sort of order not touched upon by the second law of thermodynamics (which is the tendency to disorder you mention). Most existentialist's go through nihilism, as you said, which is why I took offense and why I consider existentialism to be an extension. Only when you realize that there is no set purpose can you truly make your own unique goals and fundamentals in reality with nothing holding you back. However, I feel like I did over-react somewhat and apologize. I know you didn't mean any ill-will. With entropy, you are correct with no visible disorganization and why it is happening, but humans look and define things in an orderly way. We don't really have another way to look at the Universe in an understandable way. This does not mean what we have defined will necessarily stay true forever and, in fact, eventually it may describe things incorrectly, although not necessarily.
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Apr 9, 2010 21:40:31 GMT -5
Hmm, but I think nihilism is more than just no set purpose. Nihilism is the far extent of that thought, that life is totally and utterly meaningless. While some may first go to that point and then find their own meaning (as you yourself have attested to), it's also possible to have alternate meaning prior to dropping the objective meaning, such as was the case with me. Of existentialism I will fully admit not having much knowledge though, aside from that it appears to be a more general term that covers several different but similar ways of thought.
And as for entropy, while I find it an interesting subject, I must admit it boggles my mind after a point, and so I generally leave that one for others to debate lol.
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