Male chauvinism v. Feminism

[chelseeyuh]

May 9, 2010 18:57:31 GMT -5 TheIslander said:

May 9, 2010 18:44:24 GMT -5 @chelseeyuh said:

The core belief of feminism is that women deserve the same rights as men. Different people go about achieving this in different ways, but if you say that you flat-out don't like the idea of feminism, then that is extremely asshole-ish. You don't ahve to "follow masses of female liberals" in order to support feminism.
And just because YOU allegedly feel that you and people you know treat women equal to men, that doesn't mean that EVERYONE does. Sexism still exists, and feminism exists to combat it.

"Feminism refers to political, cultural, and economic movements aimed at establishing greater rights and legal protections for women." - Definition of feminism.
Nothing to do with equality Chelsea. Feminist believe in greater rights for women, so even if women are equal to men, they will still fight for greater rights.
Your assumptions and name calling are offensive to say the least.

It means "greater rights" as in greater than what they already have.. not as in greater than men -_______-
And "even if women are equal to men, they will still fight for greater rights." Seriously? You're going to accuse me of making assumptions, then go ahead and make a claim like that? Like I said before, not all feminists are extreme, and a person must be ignorant to believe that they are.
And I don't see how calling someone a name for believing that women don't deserve the same rights as men is anywhere near as offensive as believing that in the first place.

[TheIslander]

Feminists will fight for greater rights what ever the circumstances, that is what feminism is. Gender equality is just an excuse for feminism. Time has shown that women are as capable as men and they are today respected for that. We today have women being elected into committees simply to have a woman on board, even if she is not capable - that is where the pointless feminism comes in.

Point made.

[chelseeyuh]

Saying that feminists in general will fight for greater rights is an unfair assumption. As I've said before, and I'm sure you'll ignore once again, there are extreme feminists who try to gain advantage over men, but that's not a realistic portrayal of feminism.
There are a few women with power compared to the thousands of men, and you call that equality? Women still face sexism. Women are still oppressed. Sexes are by no means equal in the world today, so feminism isn't pointless.

[RabbitWho]

Feminism is awesome. Some people who are not feminists say they are feminists and just go around listing what they hate about the world and trying to find problems where there are none.

www.youtube.com/user/antiquelens

Here is one. She made a big mad rant about american apparels website showing women's (and men's) bottoms and says that pornography is responsible for rape and says all other kinds of nonsense.
Every now and then she hits a real issue and makes a mockery of it with her childish fanaticism.
And it's such a waste of her mind because she is clever and could be putting all that energy into something positive instead of voicing her own inadequacies and insecurities through expecting everyone else to be just like her and throwing a tantrum when they're not.

Feminism is still important and still has a place in the world.

Interesting perspective:

[TheIslander]

May 9, 2010 21:49:46 GMT -5 @chelseeyuh said:

Saying that feminists in general will fight for greater rights is an unfair assumption.

Chelsea, that is what the definition says. I think your opinion on feminism is based too much on what the media makes it to be.


The definition is there Chelsea, I won't debate it since there isn't anything to debate. Feminists will fight for greater rights. Feminism has nothing to do with gender equality, despite gender equality being an issue to feminists.

All feminists fight for gender equality, but not all people who fight for gender equality are feminist. Also gender equality, as you see, is not the only thing feminists (by definition) fight for.

As I've said before, and I'm sure you'll ignore once again, there are extreme feminists who try to gain advantage over men, but that's not a realistic portrayal of feminism.

Uhm, no. There are the feminists, and there are the wannabee feminists. If you are in favor of gender equality that does not make you a feminist.
If you believe in gender equality and want to term yourself, then feminism is not the term you want. It is Egalitarianism.

There are a few women with power compared to the thousands of men, and you call that equality? Women still face sexism. Women are still oppressed. Sexes are by no means equal in the world today, so feminism isn't pointless.

So you are telling me that women deserve high positions simply because they are women? and not because they are capable?

With your reasoning HClinton should be the US president, because she is a woman. Just because a woman has never satisfied that certain position, does that make the position sexist? If a man and a woman are interviewed for a job in which the man is clearly better at than the woman - why should I choose a woman simply to comply with your standards? People who choose men over women due to utility are not being sexist, they are being utilitarian - which is necessary in today's world.

[TheIslander]

May 10, 2010 4:37:21 GMT -5 RabbitWho said:

Interesting perspective:

First few seconds of the video: What she has said, does not make her a feminist. It makes her a humanitarian/egalitarian.

2:38 - She rants about the corporate media for not portraying her as a woman - then why is she conforming to what the corporate media says about feminism and calls herself one?

The woman in the video does not call herself a feminist because she believes in equality, she calls herself a feminist because she believes all men are rapists and all straight women who oppose feminism are intolerant. She calls herself a feminist because she believes that the men in her life have not helped her.
Yet, because she mentions equality for the first few seconds, it is all ok.

[chelseeyuh]

May 10, 2010 5:07:14 GMT -5 TheIslander said:

May 9, 2010 21:49:46 GMT -5 @chelseeyuh said:

Saying that feminists in general will fight for greater rights is an unfair assumption.

The definition is there Chelsea, I won't debate it since there isn't anything to debate. Feminists will fight for greater rights. Feminism has nothing to do with gender equality, despite gender equality being an issue to feminists.

feminism n. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

Oh look, a different definition. Rights equal to those of men.. The definition is there. I won't debate it since there isn't anything to debate.

There are a few women with power compared to the thousands of men, and you call that equality? Women still face sexism. Women are still oppressed. Sexes are by no means equal in the world today, so feminism isn't pointless.

So you are telling me that women deserve high positions simply because they are women? and not because they are capable?

With your reasoning HClinton should be the US president, because she is a woman. Just because a woman has never satisfied that certain position, does that make the position sexist? If a man and a woman are interviewed for a job in which the man is clearly better at than the woman - why should I choose a woman simply to comply with your standards? People who choose men over women due to utility are not being sexist, they are being utilitarian - which is necessary in today's world.[/quote]
If you believe that men and women are equal and have the same capacity to be equally intelligent, then women should, on average, be just as qualified for that type of job as a man. But women don't occupy as many powerful jobs as men. If it's because they aren't as qualified, then you're saying that pretty much all women aren't qualified, meaning you think women as a whole aren't as capable as men.

[TheIslander]

May 10, 2010 5:37:37 GMT -5 @chelseeyuh said:

May 10, 2010 5:07:14 GMT -5 TheIslander said:

The definition is there Chelsea, I won't debate it since there isn't anything to debate. Feminists will fight for greater rights. Feminism has nothing to do with gender equality, despite gender equality being an issue to feminists.

feminism n. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

Oh look, a different definition. Rights equal to those of men.. The definition is there. I won't debate it since there isn't anything to debate.


So you are telling me that women deserve high positions simply because they are women? and not because they are capable?

With your reasoning HClinton should be the US president, because she is a woman. Just because a woman has never satisfied that certain position, does that make the position sexist? If a man and a woman are interviewed for a job in which the man is clearly better at than the woman - why should I choose a woman simply to comply with your standards? People who choose men over women due to utility are not being sexist, they are being utilitarian - which is necessary in today's world.

If you believe that men and women are equal and have the same capacity to be equally intelligent, then women should, on average, be just as qualified for that type of job as a man. But women don't occupy as many powerful jobs as men. If it's because they aren't as qualified, then you're saying that pretty much all women aren't qualified, meaning you think women as a whole aren't as capable as men.[/quote]
Lol you are generalizing. Saying that because there exists certain women who are capable, all women are capable. I believe all women, like men are humans and that all humans are subject to capability or incapability.
If you think your opinion is core to feminist opinion then you are proving the definition I posted - you will generalize on women, and say that they are all capable even though some are not.. you say this just because some are. Not to mention some feminists generalize on men too. SMH


The women mentioned in the picture do exist, albeit them existing and me believing so I don't think all women on work place are like that. But I do believe feminists are, for pushing women like these forward.

Women have to work as much as men, get over yourselves.

[Trey]

I'm actually not as interested in whether you are a woman or not as much as what you can do. If I'm hiring for a job that requires lifting stuff up to 90 pounds back and forth between workstations, I can't give it to someone who can't lift 90 pounds. How many women do you know that can lift carry heavy objects from area to area for four hours straight? Even if a burly woman came into my office and demonstrated her heavy lifting abilities, I'd like to know her attitude towards the job. If she's there just to make sure I'm not some kind of sexist pig, I'm not interested in hiring her.

[kadie]

May 9, 2010 18:57:31 GMT -5 TheIslander said:

"Feminism refers to political, cultural, and economic movements aimed at establishing greater rights and legal protections for women." - Definition of feminism.
Nothing to do with equality Chelsea. Feminist believe in greater rights for women, so even if women are equal to men, they will still fight for greater rights.
Your assumptions and name calling are offensive to say the least.

Feminism is about women having equal rights to men. It's about complete equality of the sexes.
ask any feminist and they will tell you the same. Most feminists do not feel in any way Superior to men and do not want to be seen as such, of course there will be exceptions. but the majority do not want to be Superior.

also, saying feminism is irrelevant, unnecessary or not needed is rubbish, because sexism towards women still exists, Women still earn less than men for doing the same jobs despite the fact the equal pay act was passed almost 40 years ago.

[chelseeyuh]

May 10, 2010 11:00:47 GMT -5 kadie said:

May 9, 2010 18:57:31 GMT -5 TheIslander said:

"Feminism refers to political, cultural, and economic movements aimed at establishing greater rights and legal protections for women." - Definition of feminism.
Nothing to do with equality Chelsea. Feminist believe in greater rights for women, so even if women are equal to men, they will still fight for greater rights.
Your assumptions and name calling are offensive to say the least.

Feminism is about women having equal rights to men. It's about complete equality of the sexes.
ask any feminist and they will tell you the same. Most feminists do not feel in any way Superior to men and do not want to be seen as such, of course there will be exceptions. but the majority do not want to be Superior.

also, saying feminism is irrelevant, unnecessary or not needed is rubbish, because sexism towards women still exists, Women still earn less than men for doing the same jobs despite the fact the equal pay act was passed almost 40 years ago.

This.
Also, I honestly don't care about sexism here. Sure, I experience sexism every now and then, but I suck it up and thank my lucky stars that that's ALL that I experience. I don't live in a place where you can rape a woman with impunity, or where girls die because parents don't care enough to take care of sick daughters, or where women get acid thrown in their faces for the slightest infraction. Those things still happen. And that's why we need feminism. To say that it's unnecessary when these horrific things still happen is just, well... absurd...

And the way you say "not all women are capable" seriously implies that you think all men are...
Oh, and that picture totally wasn't sexist at all. I can clearly see that you think men and women are equal.

[TheIslander]

"I believe all women, like men are humans and that all humans are subject to capability or incapability."

"The women mentioned in the picture do exist, albeit them existing and me believing so I don't think all women on work place are like that. But I do believe feminists are, for pushing women like these forward."

Some things which I think you skipped when reading my posts. Trey understood my point.

[chelseeyuh]

I suppose that was an egregious oversight on my part. Still, I really don't see the use in posting that if you don't agree with it. I mean, it does say, "Protect your business and show all female applicants to the door." That's not a statement with which you can partially agree.

[RandiKthxxx]

See, this DID escalate into a healthy discussion ;]

[ladystardust]

Using the word "feminism" is far too broad. There are several different schools of feminism, which are drastically different from one another. Are we talking about First Wave, Second Wave, or Third Wave? French Feminism or Post-Feminism? There is really no way to talk about "feminism" as a blanket term without doing the different movements a great injustice.

[lupin]

women wanting equal right is ok (i mean, they desrve it) but feminism is woment wanting MORE rights than men, and thats just wrong