what the levels REALLY mean

[grover]

now I'm not about to say anything of what david logan or dan has said abo9ut tribal levels and whatnot are false, but I saw something that makes me worried people might get extreme about it.

the incident i was referring to was when I was watching the videos of one of the moon dwellers here, and while watching one i decided to look at his comments, now the video wasn't very good, not gonna lie, and he was certainly getting told this by others. given, the criticizers were a bit harsh. but that doesnt mean they justify what his response was.

he would always reply to them with a simple "pfft, so level 3" or something of that nature.

hopefully you see what I'm getting at here. I don't think criticism in and of itself should be considered level 3 behaviour. criticism can be constructive. let's not even get into how by saying that you are discrediting them and thus are in the end doing the same thing as them, and thus you're calling yourself level 3.


the point I'm getting at is that I think it needs to be discussed what "great" means.

I think it refers to our potential to acheive greatness. not necessarily that everything we do is great because that's simply not the truth.

[Linus]

If you dismiss something as "so level 3", it means that you yourself is on level 3, since you're basically saying that "You're wrong, and I am right because you are on level 3 and I'm not", while you are.

So the whole thing is actually quite an oxymoron, or a self-contradictory thing to say.

[Ferrrrrre]

That also brings the question of whether or not one can decide for his own on which tribal level he is..
Because i guess you can say yourself you're a level 5 since then you would think you're "better" than others
(or do we need to see the level somewhat different than classes..?? That's also something I wonder since I figure a lot of people would think so?)
so does you're tribal level depends on what other think you are and can you only be a level 5 without acknowledging it

[Linus]

Mar 12, 2010 5:00:25 GMT -5 Ferrrrrre said:

That also brings the question of whether or not one can decide for his own on which tribal level he is..
Because i guess you can say yourself you're a level 5 since then you would think you're "better" than others
(or do we need to see the level somewhat different than classes..?? That's also something I wonder since I figure a lot of people would think so?)
so does you're tribal level depends on what other think you are and can you only be a level 5 without acknowledging it

You will know when you're on level 5, however you can't say that you yourself is on level 5; at the point you reach that level there will be a "we", not an "I". If you say you're "better" than others, you're on level 3, period. To reach level 4 and 5, you need to first gather round values as a group. At the time you use your values to better the life of others, for the sake of the world, rather than your group, you are probably on level 5.

[Cortney]

Ah, I love this thread. Great discussion.

I agree with grover that by calling somebody else level 3 as in insult, you are defeating the entire purpose of what we are doing. There is nothing wrong with considering someone a level 3 person. However, rather than use it to degrade them, you should help them rise to level 4.

I do think you can consider yourself a level 4 person. Simply doing so shows your desire to be one, and that in itself puts you a bit above the typical level 3 individual (in the tribal model, it doesn't mean you're better than them).

Ferre, I don't think the tribes are like classes. In political and financial classes, their purpose is to separate and label individuals and families. Tribes, on the other hand, are used to improve upon oneself and others.

[Linus]

Mar 12, 2010 10:47:51 GMT -5 Cortney said:

Ah, I love this thread. Great discussion.

I agree with grover that by calling somebody else level 3 as in insult, you are defeating the entire purpose of what we are doing. There is nothing wrong with considering someone a level 3 person. However, rather than use it to degrade them, you should help them rise to level 4.

I still can't stop thinking that such an "insult" is quite self-contradictory, since it should rather be the ones criticising who should look down on the one delivering the "insult" (tribe level-wise). I'm not saying that justifies it though, but... I'm just sayin' x)

[nickgreyden]

Critiquing is important as it shows one where one can improve. However, some can seem quite harsh, especially when it hits close to home. For instance, if one were to tell me how I mishandled my computer assembly or that I could have done better by doing XYZ, it becomes difficult for me not to just blow them off because it is an aspect of my life I take pride in.

However, critiquing is not criticizing nor should the latter hide in the guise of the former. You can generally tell the difference with a few questions:

1. Was the comment malicious in the giver's opinion or did it just state his view.

2. Did the comment make any suggestion on how to improve my skills at this.

3. Was help or resources offered.

4. Was I told about any good points about my project.

5. Was there encouragement to strive to improve.

Remember this is not just for what is said about your own work, but things to keep in mind when commenting on or helping another out as well. I still fall short myself as no one is perfect, but remember the goal is to help, not to harm or belittle.

[Linus]

Mar 12, 2010 14:23:20 GMT -5 nickgreyden said:

Critiquing is important as it shows one where one can improve. However, some can seem quite harsh, especially when it hits close to home. For instance, if one were to tell me how I mishandled my computer assembly or that I could have done better by doing XYZ, it becomes difficult for me not to just blow them off because it is an aspect of my life I take pride in.

However, critiquing is not criticizing nor should the latter hide in the guise of the former. You can generally tell the difference with a few questions:

1. Was the comment malicious in the giver's opinion or did it just state his view.

2. Did the comment make any suggestion on how to improve my skills at this.

3. Was help or resources offered.

4. Was I told about any good points about my project.

5. Was there encouragement to strive to improve.

Remember this is not just for what is said about your own work, but things to keep in mind when commenting on or helping another out as well. I still fall short myself as no one is perfect, but remember the goal is to help, not to harm or belittle.

YES! That. That would be the difference between acting on level 3 and level 4 in my book =)

[Ferrrrrre]

Yet another thing I was thinking about:

Is there a place for competitive games/sports in a leve 4-5 tribe?
Or does this fall under the same category as that one person is good at drawing and another not..? Or does competition has to be gone in a 4-5 one.. since there's winner (who's better at something.. or thinks he better..?)

What do you think?

[Cortney]

Okay, there's a thin line between healthy competition and hostility. Competition is necessary and leads to improvement, such as in economics where the competition between businesses regulates prices and improves products.

So yes, I think competition is allowed in a level 4-5 tribe. However, it should not be used to condescend. Just because one person is better at a sport does not mean they are a better person. If we keep that in mind, competition is perfectly acceptable.

[grover]

I think whats still important in this discusiion that hasnt been addressed is what the definition of great is.

unless you all agree with what I said, than I think we can use that as a starting point.

[UnfairBear]

From my understanding, when you get to level 5 you think everyones awesome, right? But it's a fact that not everyone is on level 5 and so is maybe not so awesome, or at least has room for improvement. That means theres 1s to 4s that the concept of being level 5 is not acknowledging. Doesn't that make level 5 denying of the truth, or delusional? And doesn't that mean that theoretically level 5 people can't help anyone else go up a level because if they do they'll be acknowledging that they're better than them?

[Benyamin]

Mar 16, 2010 5:19:53 GMT -5 UnfairBear said:

And doesn't that mean that theoretically level 5 people can't help anyone else go up a level because if they do they'll be acknowledging that they're better than them?

i think its more of a state of mind. If a level 5 person is like "If you want to be as good as me, you have to let me help you", then that's level three. But if he's like " I love life, let me help you to love life also" then he's really stage five

[chelseeyuh]

Mar 13, 2010 14:40:11 GMT -5 grover said:

I think whats still important in this discusiion that hasnt been addressed is what the definition of great is.

unless you all agree with what I said, than I think we can use that as a starting point.

In terms of defining the tribe levels, I've taken "great" to mean helpful/useful. So being a level 5 means seeing that everyone contributes positively to the world..

[DreamLurker]

Mar 18, 2010 16:59:57 GMT -5 Benyamin said:

i think its more of a state of mind. If a level 5 person is like "If you want to be as good as me, you have to let me help you", then that's level three. But if he's like " I love life, let me help you to love life also" then he's really stage five

But what if, since theoretically level five means "great" then isn't it impossible to achieve? Seeing as how we as humans or even as a lifeform will always have room for some kind of improvement because we will always make some mistakes, we learn from our mistakes after all. But if we are seeing it as the way you are describing it then yes I think we could all reach level five and strive to help others once we are there. Of course it will take time but that is okay because since we are willing to better someone or another community we have that patience to help them through the obstacles they have to overcome to get to level five and then do the same for someone else.

[mrmrmr8]

Maybe this will clear things up.
Stage 1= All tribes are horrible, there is no stopping it
Stage2=My tribe is horrible, I wish i was in another tribe
Stage 3= I'm better than everyone in my tribe
Stage4= My tribe is great
Stage 5= Every tribe has potential to be great

[TheIslander]

I don't think anyone can answer that question, because tribe levels albeit being defined in the Logan video are still 'abstract' in the sense that you cannot measure tribes according to their attitude because there is no unit for attitude.
We manage to calculate distance, time because it does not vary... it increases proportionately, creating other abstract quantities like velocity which can be in turn be broken down to distance and time.
Here we are trying to calculate tribes in terms of attitude when attitude its self isn't something physical which we can calculate.

I think we are taking the Tribal Level concept a bit too literally. I havn't read Logan's books but the impression I got was that the tribal levels are there for self-evaluation, somewhat creating tribal conscience. They are there to create a common aim for every tribe since after learning about the tribal levels every tribe member will aspire to create and be part of tribes which are level 5 tribes.
Think of the tribal level thing as a parable, you cannot take it literally. It is there to improve your conscience as a tribal member.

When Jesus told the parable of the good Samaritan, people didn't flock the streets to try see who is helping who - to see who is the good Samaritan. Neither did they pop their chests because they have helped others, they just learnt from the parable and kept it in mind for the rest of their life.
The tribal level lecture and the good Samaritan parable should have the same type of effect on us. Don't apply it to the past, apply it to the future: more importantly YOUR future.

[sarahendipity]

Mar 12, 2010 5:00:25 GMT -5 Ferrrrrre said:

That also brings the question of whether or not one can decide for his own on which tribal level he is..
Because i guess you can say yourself you're a level 5 since then you would think you're "better" than others
(or do we need to see the level somewhat different than classes..?? That's also something I wonder since I figure a lot of people would think so?)
so does you're tribal level depends on what other think you are and can you only be a level 5 without acknowledging it

Also, it is pretty much guaranteed that a person will never be able to judge themselves for what tribal level they are on. Depending on the type of person, they may say they belong in a tribe much higher on the scale than they personally fit in. On another end of the spectrum, one may be humble and modest by lowering what tribal level they are on because they do not want to seem self-important.

[DreamLurker]

TheIslander makes a very good point in the fact that there are no units for attitude and how something that cannot be measure, is measured. Because it can't, impossible. So at this point we should as stated just use the information given to us in the levels to just be consciously aware of our actions and how we can help others and ourselves both separate and together. But also no one tribe can say what level they are at but merely can be told by another tribe what the other thinks of this. As long as the community help each other no matter what level we, they, are at to become better that is really all that matters.

[grover]

Mar 24, 2010 16:34:23 GMT -5 TheIslander said:

I don't think anyone can answer that question, because tribe levels albeit being defined in the Logan video are still 'abstract' in the sense that you cannot measure tribes according to their attitude because there is no unit for attitude.
We manage to calculate distance, time because it does not vary... it increases proportionately, creating other abstract quantities like velocity which can be in turn be broken down to distance and time.
Here we are trying to calculate tribes in terms of attitude when attitude its self isn't something physical which we can calculate.

I think we are taking the Tribal Level concept a bit too literally. I havn't read Logan's books but the impression I got was that the tribal levels are there for self-evaluation, somewhat creating tribal conscience. They are there to create a common aim for every tribe since after learning about the tribal levels every tribe member will aspire to create and be part of tribes which are level 5 tribes.
Think of the tribal level thing as a parable, you cannot take it literally. It is there to improve your conscience as a tribal member.

When Jesus told the parable of the good Samaritan, people didn't flock the streets to try see who is helping who - to see who is the good Samaritan. Neither did they pop their chests because they have helped others, they just learnt from the parable and kept it in mind for the rest of their life.
The tribal level lecture and the good Samaritan parable should have the same type of effect on us. Don't apply it to the past, apply it to the future: more importantly YOUR future.

well believe me when I say that I would very much like to believe what you are saying, not taking the tribal level concept literally allows for a more open standard of what is appropriate stage five behaviour, and discussion can be made on just what a stage five tribe is about.

that however is NOT the impression i've gotten from dan, as well as others on this forum. which is what led me to ponder this seemingly contradictory doctrine in the tribal theory. I could totally be off though. if it turns out that what you are proposing is indeed the way that dan intends to handle the tribal process, than so be it. but it needs to be made known or else it will lead this tribe to a state of hypocrisy.

as for measuring attitude, I don't know how finalized the tribal values are, but if/when they are, those would be the measuring criteria of an attitude. obviously a given person's attitude would still be unmeasureable for the most part but it would still be providing a road map for where you are meant to be headed. this is why tribal values are important. if you dont take the tribal levels from a literal stance, than an easy way to measure the level of a tribe is to compare how a tribe would ideally live and operate based on their values and how they currently live and operate.