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Post by chelseeyuh on Mar 25, 2010 17:19:41 GMT -5
The mindset of a level 5 tribes person is "I'm great, you're great, life is great," but (and maybe this is just my level 3-ness showing), I don't understand how we can say that EVERYONE is great. The word "great" has a lot of meanings, but in the context of tribes, I take it to mean good, amazing, helpful, useful, etc. So, if I want to be a level 5, I have to believe that EVERYONE is great? This includes rapists and pedophiles and murders? Hitler was great? So, as a level 5, are we supposed to overlook terrible transgressions of people and find a way to call them "great" regardless of what they do?
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Post by Speckley on Mar 25, 2010 17:31:53 GMT -5
Perhaps the purpose is not to ignore terrible transgressions of people, but to find the good in them. While it may seem like there is "evil" in the world, I will bet you that every single person on this planet has at least one good trait or behavior inside them. They might not show it on the outside, but it's there.
I could just be too optimistic for my own good, though.
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Post by PunchJunky on Mar 25, 2010 17:35:46 GMT -5
Nah, we just keep our huge grins as we call them Great. - Then we make rape and paedophilia punishable by execution. - Still smiling away. Seriously though, I think that could be taking level 5 ideology a bit literally, and if not, and we are supposed to regard these people as 'Great'. Then I'd rather not have a part in that tribe.
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Camoon
Star
[AWD:01020307]
Trust your pilot, respect your monkey.
Posts: 574
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Post by Camoon on Mar 25, 2010 18:03:54 GMT -5
Hitler wanted to create a perfect world. He believed so strongly in his ideas that he tried to make it happen by force. I personally don't believe he was 'evil' because I don't believe 'evil' exists as an entity. The word 'evil' is a word created to explain extreme ideas that oppose the normal.
For example, years ago it was considered 'evil' to be homosexual, and in a lot of parts of the world, including the US, it was punishable by death. Other places like England would send you to a mental institute. Because 'good' = normal. And 'evil' = not normal. And homosexual = not normal.
Anyway, I think I just made it sound like I agree with Hitler. Hell no! There's a difference between not hating someone and agreeing with them. I don't hate Hitler, I don't hate Bin Laden, I don't hate Harry Truman for dropping 'Little Boy' on Japan. After all, one nations hero is another nations terrorist.
One thing I learned a few years ago whilst studying Buddhism, is that you can love your enemies. All you need to do if someone is really bugging you, or you absolutely hate them, is think this: "I love anyone who helps me become a stronger person. This person is an obstacle to overcome, and once I've gotten over my hatred, I will have become wiser and stronger. So I should love them for providing me with that. If it wasn't for them I wouldn't be provided with this challenge, this opportunity." Don't just think that, believe it.
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Post by chelseeyuh on Mar 25, 2010 18:15:36 GMT -5
Hitler wanted to create a perfect world. He believed so strongly in his ideas that he tried to make it happen by force. I personally don't believe he was 'evil' because I don't believe 'evil' exists as an entity. The word 'evil' is a word created to explain extreme ideas that oppose the normal. You give a good example, BUT, in some countries rape is perfectly acceptable, and people that try to stand up for rape victims are seen as "not normal" and are often punished. So by your reasoning, rape victim advocates are evil. Furthermore, homosexuality wasn't seen as evil just because it was abnormal. People (as ridiculous as it is) opposed homosexuality because of what the Bible says. If something is condemned by the Bible, of course people who follow the Bible will think that it's evil. One thing I learned a few years ago whilst studying Buddhism, is that you can love your enemies. All you need to do if someone is really bugging you, or you absolutely hate them, is think this: "I love anyone who helps me become a stronger person. This person is an obstacle to overcome, and once I've gotten over my hatred, I will have become wiser and stronger. So I should love them for providing me with that. If it wasn't for them I wouldn't be provided with this challenge, this opportunity." Don't just think that, believe it. This is more understandable.. I'm not sure if this is the same definition of "great" that I had in mind, but it is a good way to account for the issue.
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Post by Ricky on Mar 25, 2010 18:56:09 GMT -5
I suppose just like you wouldn't hate someone for having a broken leg, you can't really hate someone for having psychological problems, or lacking the education needed for knowing when to do the right thing or even knowing what the right thing is.
If we realize we are all great then we'll stop trying to compete and eradicate those outside our own perception and start helping them become the best version of who they are. Always keeping in mind equality, and moral implications.
but that's what I think.
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Post by nickgreyden on Mar 25, 2010 19:18:25 GMT -5
Hitler was a great man. He was full of charm and charisma. He rose to power on those traits as well as a vision of Germany becoming an awesome country again. He had vision. A vision for the future that was pure and wonderful place, where all were a great people... the only problem is he wished to eradicate those whom opposed his vision as well as those whom he found to be inferior stock for his super race. Look at what Hitler wanted. What he really really wanted early in his career. It was a wonderful thing, especially if you take into account Germany's horrid situation at the time. You can't blame him nor those under him for wanting something better. He was a force that moved the entire country from a stage 2 to a stage 3 tribe. The problem then became bridges burned and status quo. He was a tyrant of a man and equally lost in his own world, especially as the war was stretched out year after year. He vision was great. He was a great man. His methods was what made him horrible. Even in war, the enemy always believes he is on the side of right and is fighting for what is right in the world. Though his view may be warped and twisted from education and life experiences, always remember they think themselves to be correct. One thing I learned a few years ago whilst studying Buddhism, is that you can love your enemies. All you need to do if someone is really bugging you, or you absolutely hate them, is think this: "I love anyone who helps me become a stronger person. This person is an obstacle to overcome, and once I've gotten over my hatred, I will have become wiser and stronger. So I should love them for providing me with that. If it wasn't for them I wouldn't be provided with this challenge, this opportunity." Don't just think that, believe it. This is the true sense of the word love. When you can love those that deserve only hate, you truly become a greater person yourself. "Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate, but that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, handsome, talented and fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We were born to make manifest the glory of God within us. It is not just in some; it is in everyone. And, as we let our own light shine, we consciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear, our presence automatically liberates others." --Marianne Williamson
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Post by chelseeyuh on Mar 25, 2010 19:35:52 GMT -5
Ricky, you make a good point, but not everyone that does something immoral has psychological problems.. especially in other countries where their norm includes things that we would consider unthinkable.
And Nick, I understand that Hitler's vision was honorable, but his means simply weren't. In any situation, we need to ask ourselves: Does the end justify the means? Can a person do whatever they want, so long as they have a vision? In my opinion, no, they can't. I watched a TEDTalk the other day about morality, and how it's just like science: There is a distinct line of what is right and wrong. With science, a person can say that a theory isn't right, but that doesn't make it so. As with morals, you can say that your own morals are right and another person's are wrong, but that doesn't mean it's true. So in relation to these circumstances, we could definitively say that Hitler's morals were wrong. Period.
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grover
Moon
whatever.
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Post by grover on Mar 25, 2010 22:42:48 GMT -5
this is something i'm struggling with too and and that i tried to cover in the thread I made.
as I said there, the only definition I can think of for great that i would agree applies to everyone, is that they have the potential to do great things. some people don't live up to their potential, but assumingwe are basing the whole tribal structure on life/everyone being great being what stage 5 is all about, part of the essence of such a tribe is too fulfill the great potential in as many people as possible.
in a way, the question that different tribes answer in different ways is "is the nature of man good or evil"
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Post by Ricky on Mar 26, 2010 0:18:03 GMT -5
Ricky, you make a good point, but not everyone that does something immoral has psychological problems.. especially in other countries where their norm includes things that we would consider unthinkable. I didn't say that it was only for people with psychological problems Chelsea, see: or lacking the education needed for knowing when to do the right thing or even knowing what the right thing is. I'm also saying that this change would have to first start within our own community and branch out. There is no way we would try to change a country right away nor that we would want to. Education has to be the first step in achieving level 5. It is the main reason behind most issues regarding racism, intolerance, selfishness, and stereotyping come from.
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Post by chelseeyuh on Mar 26, 2010 5:17:39 GMT -5
Sorry Ricky, I iz dumb. I guess that makes sense.. But still, I just don't see how we can be like "It's not his fault; he didn't have the proper education," to dismiss people that do terrible things.. And I think there are people that are properly educated but still choose to do these things...
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Post by Ricky on Mar 26, 2010 6:28:32 GMT -5
lol no you are not... xD
anyways, I guess it really boils down to whether you believe that people are good and elements outside such as community, education, family, friends, or culture affect the way they interact with others (which is what I believe)
or that some people are inherently evil (which has been disproven by science repeatedly)
or that if the rules of society were not in place people would just follow impulses not caring about others (which is a sociologist theory, but not well liked)
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mrmrmr8
Meteor
SPOTM FTW! (:
Posts: 70
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Post by mrmrmr8 on Mar 28, 2010 23:14:45 GMT -5
This will clear it up Stage 5= every tribe has potential to be great. Here the definition of great means helping the world be better. Everyone can, or is contributing to the world in some way.
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Post by leviroseman on Mar 29, 2010 19:00:12 GMT -5
Hitler wanted to create a perfect world. He believed so strongly in his ideas that he tried to make it happen by force. I personally don't believe he was 'evil' because I don't believe 'evil' exists as an entity. The word 'evil' is a word created to explain extreme ideas that oppose the normal. For example, years ago it was considered 'evil' to be homosexual, and in a lot of parts of the world, including the US, it was punishable by death. Other places like England would send you to a mental institute. Because 'good' = normal. And 'evil' = not normal. And homosexual = not normal. wow *claps* Anyway, I think I just made it sound like I agree with Hitler. Hell no! There's a difference between not hating someone and agreeing with them. I don't hate Hitler, I don't hate Bin Laden, I don't hate Harry Truman for dropping 'Little Boy' on Japan. After all, one nations hero is another nations terrorist. One thing I learned a few years ago whilst studying Buddhism, is that you can love your enemies. All you need to do if someone is really bugging you, or you absolutely hate them, is think this: "I love anyone who helps me become a stronger person. This person is an obstacle to overcome, and once I've gotten over my hatred, I will have become wiser and stronger. So I should love them for providing me with that. If it wasn't for them I wouldn't be provided with this challenge, this opportunity." Don't just think that, believe it.
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Post by shinigami345 on Mar 29, 2010 21:07:19 GMT -5
my question is "Why can't we just unconditionally love everyone and each other reguardless?" Are not a serial rapist and the pope both still humans? Are they not both entitled to the same respect and dignity that we show to our best friend? The answer to both is yes and reguardless of who it is or what they have done I still love them (some of this stems from my religion,Christianity, which teaches us to love thy neighbor as thy self). Religion aside however people are people and deserve treatment as such.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2010 8:04:35 GMT -5
If I recall correctly the Ted Talk about tribes and Dan post, level five was not "everyone is great" but "life is great", as in life itself.
Using Hitler as an example is a bad idea because Hitler did what he did based on a moral idea, as he tried to make the world better. He obviously failed as his moral code was much likely wrong.
A better example are people who are bad without trying to be good. Rapists and maybe some totalitarian governments.
Rapists do not care if they are harming someone. Basically they are interested only in their well being and not on others' well being. Some totalitarian governments only do what they do so as they can have absolute power, without caring for the people. Again, they are only interested in their own well being and not on others' well being.
From what I can see, a level 5 tribe is a tribe which has to care with others' well being and not only with its own well being, or else it wouldn't be a level 5 tribe.
With this definition in mind I think it is possible to assume that it is acceptable to hate some people, as long as that hate is beneficial to the largest amount of people possible.
But is it good to hate some people? In my opinion it is not. As hate (as well as some other emotions) "blur" our ideas and makes it hard for us to think correctly and to achieve the best things possible.
For the same reason, I think it is not acceptable to love everyone unconditionally because some people want to undermine exactly what we are trying to do, a great life for everybody. Why are they doing it? Because they want a greater life for themselves. Of course this doesn't mean we should hate them, but we shouldn't love them either.
At least this is my opinion.
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Post by ramram on Mar 30, 2010 12:26:13 GMT -5
it's relative... everything is.. the word 'great' only exists as a comparison to crappy things... if there where no crappy things in the world.. the idea of great wouldn't exist because there would be no need for differentiation.... and vise versa
-ramram
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TsukikoSuoh
Meteor
Slytherin. And proud of it.
Posts: 50
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Post by TsukikoSuoh on Mar 30, 2010 16:05:09 GMT -5
I believe that it's all a matter of perspective. No matter what you do, someone will always think it's wrong. There is no such thing as TRUE unity, because everyone's opinions are different.
Right and Wrong are both matter of perspective as well, because if, for example, Hitler and those associated with him believed that it was the RIGHT thing to try to destroy all those who didn't fit his view of 'perfect', the rest of the world thought it was WRONG for him to do that. Even the simplest of acts can cause an uproar in another place that has different standards and such from your own. So, even with level 5, seeing the good in everyone isn't truly going to happen because there will always be people who disagree with what is a 'good' quality to have.
But this is only my opinion.
-Tsukiko
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Post by chelseeyuh on Mar 31, 2010 5:19:46 GMT -5
I'm not sure if this is the point some of you were trying to make, but I think it is & I just didn't get it until now because I'm dumb..
Even bad people are great because they show us what evil is, thereby giving us a reference point to which we can compare good things, so we can appreciate them more. So you can dislike or hate a person because of the awful things that they have done, but simultaneously be thankful for them because you wouldn't be able to happy without them.
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Felix
Meteor
I think I lost my headache.
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Post by Felix on Mar 31, 2010 17:20:23 GMT -5
But I think that's a rather selfish way to look at those "bad" people. Because then you just use them to feel better about yourself and maybe the people you are with. I actually think the line of thought goes the other way round. If you really see something beautiful e.g. a part of a landscape totally untouched by human hands in the sunset (bit cheesy but it does the job ^^) then you start to see the ugly sides of life as evil and you become an enemy of them. Ugly and Awesome go hand in hand (vlogbrothers would kill me ^^) we should stop thinking of victim and offender and start thinking about human nature. 'cause think about it: If we lived in a world of total peace and beauty there would be a point where the ressources that are used would start to vanish and so everyone would start fighting about them. that's a natural instinct, the will to survive. Actually I think the words good and bad themselves are total rubbish, at least if you use them in the context that we do now. you have to use those words relatively. you can say an action is good for the economy but that same action could influent the enviroment in a bad way, so please if anyone here can give me an example of a general use for those words, I'll be your friend forever
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