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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2010 13:50:39 GMT -5
I think the main point we all need to remember is that every human has a good side to him. I can't believe that there is one single human being who is completely "evil", just as there is no one who is completely "great". Neither will we ever be able to achieve that. Example: -Hitler: He did some horrible, horrible things, but as said before, he was one of the greatest speakers ever, had a great charisma and people close around him actually looked up to him. -Rapists/serial killers: in one of the posts above someone said that these people act solely on their own selfishness, but that is a big mistake. When they are raping/killing, they are indeed selfish to extreme extents, but they also have families and/or friends and often are really good fathers/husbands/friends... Mahatma Ghandi: He is a great person for encouraging peace and fighting for peace without violence, but I can imagine he also has flaws, like smelly feet or something.. We need to remember that we can't judge people on only one side of the picture, without even trying to see the other side... A good example of this is the course I follow at university called "Wereldgeschiedenis", literally translated "World history". Now this class is quite different from the usual "World History" you'll find at university. And this is why: in this course we don't get a chronological or themed history of the world. I think you all know what chronological is, but by themed, I mean viewed from the point of a certain group of people or a certain nation. An example: If you look at the expansion of Europe to the American continent from either the European/American (UN and Canada) point of view or when you look at it from the Mayans point of view, you'll get a great difference. We try to see it in it's entirety (is that a word?). We ask different questions such as "Why is it that Europe expanded to the American continent and not the other way around?" "We know that the Spanish won with 160 (aprox) men against a huuuuge army of natives, but how did this happen, why were they superior?" I think in order to achieve a level 5 tribe, we first need to start looking at people and event this way, trying to detach ourselves from our surroundings, our upbringing and education. If I look at the fact that in a certain Middle-Eastern country (can't remember which one) women aren't allowed to play with their children in the public playgrounds (because the Religous Police finds it inappropriate that they are playing on swings and slides) from my European values, it's impossible for me to understand. However, if I would be able to talk to these people and discuss with them, I might be able to understand them and they might be able to understand me... I am not yet at that point where I can read stuff like this and think "WTF weird people", so I know I'm not ready for a level 5 tribe. Anyway, sorry for the long text, but that's what I think about it
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Post by chelseeyuh on Apr 2, 2010 14:14:20 GMT -5
I think the main point we all need to remember is that every human has a good side to him. I can't believe that there is one single human being who is completely "evil", just as there is no one who is completely "great". Neither will we ever be able to achieve that. Example: -Hitler: He did some horrible, horrible things, but as said before, he was one of the greatest speakers ever, had a great charisma and people close around him actually looked up to him. I never argued that Hitler wasn't a charismatic rhetor.. I said that he used his skills for evil. And I'm just not sure that we can say that he's great because he consciously used his genius to harm people. And I understand what you mean about seeing situations from all possible points of view. I'm always open-minded and eager to hear other people's stances and ideas, but I disagree with the idea that we must dismiss the actions of other people which we consider wrong just because they have a different culture. Again, I'm not saying "I'm right; everyone else is wrong," I'm simply saying that not everyone is always right simply because we have different cultures. For example, in some cultures rape is disdained, while in others it's totally acceptable. Does that mean that in some places rape is morally acceptable? No! Rape is never acceptable, regardless of your culture. I think what Ricky said sort of applies here: That some people simply don't have the education to discern right from wrong. If your culture tells you something is acceptable, you probably won't question it too much.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2010 14:23:00 GMT -5
I think the main point we all need to remember is that every human has a good side to him. I can't believe that there is one single human being who is completely "evil", just as there is no one who is completely "great". Neither will we ever be able to achieve that. Example: -Hitler: He did some horrible, horrible things, but as said before, he was one of the greatest speakers ever, had a great charisma and people close around him actually looked up to him. I never argued that Hitler wasn't a charismatic rhetor.. I said that he used his skills for evil. And I'm just not sure that we can say that he's great because he consciously used his genius to harm people. Well I wasn't specifically pointing to you, when I said that and I understood what you said about him using his skills for evil But there were others who were referring to him as completely evil (if I'm not mistaken). But I stick to my point, even if you look at what he did, there were parts of him that were good. And I understand what you mean about seeing situations from all possible points of view. I'm always open-minded and eager to hear other people's stances and ideas, but I disagree with the idea that we must dismiss the actions of other people which we consider wrong just because they have a different culture. Again, I'm not saying "I'm right; everyone else is wrong," I'm simply saying that not everyone is always right simply because we have different cultures. For example, in some cultures rape is disdained, while in others it's totally acceptable. Does that mean that in some places rape is morally acceptable? No! Rape is never acceptable, regardless of your culture. I think what Ricky said sort of applies here: That some people simply don't have the education to discern right from wrong. If your culture tells you something is acceptable, you probably won't question it too much. That's why in my previous post, I talked about having a discussion with these people. In order to understand them, you need to listen to them. Only then can you either try to persuade them to understand your (our) point of view, or understand their point of view and maybe see that they are right. (of course, in the case of rape I don't think they would be able to persuade me to agree with them XD)
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Post by chelseeyuh on Apr 2, 2010 15:02:53 GMT -5
@crracktheskye, I see.. I just assumed since I mentioned Hitler in the original post, that that was what you were referring to. I think you're right in that he COULD have had some good qualities, but I don't think that that makes him great. Actually, I changed my mind. He WAS great in the sense that we could learn something from his speaking abilities, even if he was not so great in other aspects. But there still is some greatness. So yay for making me change my mind BUT that makes me bring up another question: What about someone that does absolutely nothing with their life? They have no skills and basically just sit around doing nothing and not interacting with people? How is this person great? I hope that I understood your point correctly...
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Felix
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Post by Felix on Apr 2, 2010 18:11:46 GMT -5
EXACTLY! I think level 5 means breaking the borders of countries and land. At level 5 you have to think globally and i think this even goes as far as to the point of rape. i mean sure i'm against it but those people have to have reasons for being the way they are and if i explore those reasons i can understand the people. then - when i know how they think - i can relativise it again and form an opinion and mabey even persuade them to change their thoughts on this particular issue. that's what learning is to me, taking up a new position and then relativising it.
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Post by zAkAtAk on Apr 2, 2010 18:34:54 GMT -5
I don't know about Hitler, but lil Hitler is pretty awesome!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2010 18:46:18 GMT -5
@crracktheskye, I see.. I just assumed since I mentioned Hitler in the original post, that that was what you were referring to. I think you're right in that he COULD have had some good qualities, but I don't think that that makes him great. Actually, I changed my mind. He WAS great in the sense that we could learn something from his speaking abilities, even if he was not so great in other aspects. But there still is some greatness. So yay for making me change my mind BUT that makes me bring up another question: What about someone that does absolutely nothing with their life? They have no skills and basically just sit around doing nothing and not interacting with people? How is this person great? I hope that I understood your point correctly... YES! you got my point 100% I'm not sure about your question, I'm actually a little bit drunk right now XD (it's 2 am here , so that should expalin any possible spelling mistakes ), but I don't really think there are people in this world who hold no value at all to anyone else. That would mean they don't have even 1 friend, don't do anything good for society and don't think in new ways at all.. If people like that exist, I'd be very surprised tbh. @felix: thanks for understanding my point! I do believe though that while you're in the process of listening and understanding people, you have to try to think for yourself and make sure you don't get controlled by others
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Felix
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Post by Felix on Apr 2, 2010 18:56:36 GMT -5
yes, sure you shouldn't be a zombie i think we don't even have to debate that anymore. and i think sometimes it's hard to do the relativising part, it takes a lot of self-control and -awareness.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2010 18:57:41 GMT -5
and the ability to cancel your own ego out, even if only for a split second
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Post by chelseeyuh on Apr 2, 2010 21:29:13 GMT -5
EXACTLY! I think level 5 means breaking the borders of countries and land. At level 5 you have to think globally and i think this even goes as far as to the point of rape. i mean sure i'm against it but those people have to have reasons for being the way they are and if i explore those reasons i can understand the people. then - when i know how they think - i can relativise it again and form an opinion and mabey even persuade them to change their thoughts on this particular issue. that's what learning is to me, taking up a new position and then relativising it. In countries where rape is widely accepted, it's because the women have NO rights. They're basically property, and their treatment doesn't matter whatsoever. They get raped because it is the worst possible punishment you can give a person for however they have "wronged you," and the rapists know that if they rape a woman, her family is shamed (not the rapist, but the family of the victim is looked down upon). And they know that the woman will probably commit suicide, thus getting them out of the way. It's basically a tolerable form of murder. THAT'S how rapists think. Now can you really say that that's acceptable?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2010 2:02:27 GMT -5
we're not saying this is acceptable, we're saying that rather than hating these people for their actions, you should try to reason with them. But when you do that, you can't be patronising, because if you are, you already believe that you are 100% right and they are 100% wrong. You need to be able to listen and think about their opinions and then counter them with facts and better reasoning At least that's how I see it, a hateless discussion between equal human beings. Since we're all the same species, we have the same basic values and therefore should be able to come to a solution.
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Post by chelseeyuh on Apr 3, 2010 2:15:24 GMT -5
I'm just saying that even though people have reasons for doing bad things, that doesn't make the bad things okay. And even if you fully understand their reasons for doing something, that still doesn't mean that their reasons make their actions acceptable. And you can't reason with someone you've never met. If I've never met a rapist, I can't tell a rapist why rape is wrong and try to change him. So, I don't understand what you suggest we do. We learn to see an issue from the other points of view, evaluate them, decide what is right, and if we still think that we're right and there's no way for us to try to make the other people see that, what exactly do we do from there?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2010 6:06:29 GMT -5
That I don't know, but I don't think hating them, or excluding them from a community is an option..
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RabbitWho
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 3, 2010 8:20:49 GMT -5
You've made a list of people you can't include in the "great" category, but how many of those people do you actually know? The vast majority of people we meet every day are great and have the potential to get to level five.
Of course we need to draw the line somewhere, violence and hate are not great things. But often those people are just lost, it's something sad, we shouldn't hate them back if we can avoid it. But we'll always be human.
I think Speckley hit the nail on the head.
Camus wrote in The Plague through one character that there are three types of beings.
1. Healers 2. Victims 3. Pestilences
He said that we could try and be healers, but it was very hard.. I can't remember the exact words or find them online, but I found this bit “All I know is that there are pestilences and there are victims, and its up to us, so far as is possible, not to join forces with the pestilences.”
This has generally been my philosophy since reading it. He doesn't say this is the only way of looking at the world, he doesn't say people who feel they have to fight wars for something are wrong, this is just how this one character feels. It seems quite black and white, good and bad, but really it's not if you read it.. I'm having trouble expressing what I mean.
What I'm trying to say is we can try and be good in everything we do and show love and tolerance and understanding to everyone, that's a healer, like the Doctor in the book.
But it's really hard to get that far, I can't tolerate intolerance, I cant talk to people who (for example) hate gay people, but could I help them if they were in trouble? Absolutely! At least I hope so! I hope I would never say "I can't be kind to that person because he is so filled with hate." The thing is there's a limit to how kind I can be, could i try and save their life if they needed it? Yes. Could I sit down and have a pleasant conversation with them? No. Could I accept them as a friend? No. That's the limit of my goodness I think.
(Not that I'm a stage 5 kind of person, i try to be, but I'm very much 3 most of the time and below 3 on the internet. Too competitive and insecure. Arrogance, Competitiveness, Insecurity and Negativity are my biggest problems, both with myself and with others. (Except insecurity in others is fine))
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Post by chelseeyuh on Apr 3, 2010 12:59:03 GMT -5
That I don't know, but I don't think hating them, or excluding them from a community is an option.. I never mentioned excluding them from a community.. But, what do you mean by that? I mean, isn't that what prison is? Are you saying we shouldn't imprison murderers and rapists? And, I can accept that even evil people have good in them, and we must realize that, but I don't know how to not hate someone for the terrible things that they do.. If I or someone I knew were raped, I would hate that rapist. Even if I realized that that person had good qualities, I wouldn't be able to be like "I know that he has some decent qualities, so it's fine that he committed this horrific crime."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2010 13:04:44 GMT -5
I don't think prison is a good thing. It alienates people from the real world and only makes them into worse criminals.. Even though I say that, I can't really see a different solution as for what to do with people who can't function in society..
And I agree, I wouldn't be able to think that way either if someone raped my sister for example. I don't know how this could be solved to be honest, I think the human race first needs to evolve before we can know stuff like that, our brains aren't good enough for that IMO. (something I might explain in a later topic)
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RabbitWho
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 3, 2010 13:28:28 GMT -5
That I don't know, but I don't think hating them, or excluding them from a community is an option.. I never mentioned excluding them from a community.. But, what do you mean by that? I mean, isn't that what prison is? Are you saying we shouldn't imprison murderers and rapists? And, I can accept that even evil people have good in them, and we must realize that, but I don't know how to not hate someone for the terrible things that they do.. If I or someone I knew were raped, I would hate that rapist. Even if I realized that that person had good qualities, I wouldn't be able to be like "I know that he has some decent qualities, so it's fine that he committed this horrific crime." But he probably had a horrible childhood. I can't speak for anyone else but it's really not my place to judge because I knew love and kindness and goodness and happiness as a child and growing up. Some people never experienced that, i can't judge them because who knows what kind of a monster I'd be in their shoes. It doesn't mean I have to love them, but I shouldn't hate them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2010 13:55:02 GMT -5
I never mentioned excluding them from a community.. But, what do you mean by that? I mean, isn't that what prison is? Are you saying we shouldn't imprison murderers and rapists? And, I can accept that even evil people have good in them, and we must realize that, but I don't know how to not hate someone for the terrible things that they do.. If I or someone I knew were raped, I would hate that rapist. Even if I realized that that person had good qualities, I wouldn't be able to be like "I know that he has some decent qualities, so it's fine that he committed this horrific crime." But he probably had a horrible childhood. I can't speak for anyone else but it's really not my place to judge because I knew love and kindness and goodness and happiness as a child and growing up. Some people never experienced that, i can't judge them because who knows what kind of a monster I'd be in their shoes. It doesn't mean I have to love them, but I shouldn't hate them. I agree with this, but the question still holds: "What do we do to stop this kind of hate?" You can't take kids away from bad (less good) parents to decrease their suck, can you? (I'm not talking about extreme cases here)
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RabbitWho
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 3, 2010 14:06:41 GMT -5
But he probably had a horrible childhood. I can't speak for anyone else but it's really not my place to judge because I knew love and kindness and goodness and happiness as a child and growing up. Some people never experienced that, i can't judge them because who knows what kind of a monster I'd be in their shoes. It doesn't mean I have to love them, but I shouldn't hate them. I agree with this, but the question still holds: "What do we do to stop this kind of hate?" You can't take kids away from bad (less good) parents to decrease their suck, can you? (I'm not talking about extreme cases here) True. It's hard to know what to do. However, whatever we do hate can't be the answer. It is natural, but it is something we need to leave behind. We're not in a position to make decisions about kids and how they should be raised by other people, that's not our job. The people who are in those positions need to use their brains and their empathy but not their emotions. We're here on this planet to do what we can do make the world better, or at least not to damage it. I think it's perfectly okay for us to leave the things that we can't change alone. I heard someone on the internet, and I can't remember for the life who it was except that it was a woman... She said: "Hating people is pointless, the only person you hurt with hate is yourself. Half of the people who you hate don't know that you hate them and the other half don't care."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2010 14:09:54 GMT -5
That last sentence is so amazingly true my eyes started bleeding gold.
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