Felix
Meteor
I think I lost my headache.
Posts: 85
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Post by Felix on Apr 3, 2010 17:23:08 GMT -5
Actually at level 5, we have to stop being the humans we used to be, right? We have to learn to come into a state in which we totally drop our values to lose our emotions and then we can judge objectively about anything. But, damn, that sounds hard!
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Post by Andy Glover on Apr 3, 2010 18:31:07 GMT -5
I think Dan touched on this in one of his videos, and the Tribal Leadership book definitely speaks to it: one big difference between stage 4 and 5 is the existence of enemies. In the same way that a tribe is greater than the sum of its members, a tribe's causes that are in alignment with their values become greater than the adverse forces that might hinder those causes.
Love and respect of the person, not the atrocities they commit, is a very important distinction to make.
That's my two cents.
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RabbitWho
Star
Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
Posts: 808
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 3, 2010 18:50:32 GMT -5
I can't love Hitler. The best I can do is not hate him. But that's hard, I mean... uch
I'm not Gandhi.
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Post by chelseeyuh on Apr 4, 2010 10:16:02 GMT -5
I think Dan touched on this in one of his videos, and the Tribal Leadership book definitely speaks to it: one big difference between stage 4 and 5 is the existence of enemies. In the same way that a tribe is greater than the sum of its members, a tribe's causes that are in alignment with their values become greater than the adverse forces that might hinder those causes. Love and respect of the person, not the atrocities they commit, is a very important distinction to make. That's my two cents. Hmm... I'll definitely have to read that book then.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 11:28:05 GMT -5
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Post by andrea1994barney on Apr 4, 2010 21:32:18 GMT -5
We should show love and acceptance to everyone, forgiveness is also good. People do deserve to be punished but everyone deserves second chances.
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Post by Andy Glover on Apr 4, 2010 22:00:08 GMT -5
We should show love and acceptance to everyone, forgiveness is also good. People do deserve to be punished but everyone deserves second chances. Hmm... I think people definitely deserve to be nurtured, taught, and corrected. Punishment is necessary when people refuse to live by tribe values, despite being taught otherwise. But the emphasis should definitely be off punishment and on helping people grow.
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Post by chelseeyuh on Apr 4, 2010 22:11:51 GMT -5
@andy, firstly, I like your signature! I think we should all do something like that.. put links to help newer members navigate. I'll have to do that soon. And.. ok.. so.. to recap: People do bad things, but instead of hating them for it, we need to help them and teach them not to act the way they have acted in the past. And they're great because... even if they've done bad things, they have the potential to overcome their amorality and become a "normal," moral, helpful part of society? I really want to read the book.. I will as soon as I have time. I know you posted the link to the audiobook, but I just prefer having a physical book..
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Post by kevinguy247 on Apr 4, 2010 22:55:08 GMT -5
I think that to achieve level 5 you just need to love LIFE more than anything else! And that has to take the first priority! That's all. Which means, if you're ever feeling justified in doing something to harm life, that thing you love more than anything else, well you just CAN'T! Because you love life too much!
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Post by Andy Glover on Apr 4, 2010 22:58:21 GMT -5
@andy, firstly, I like your signature! I think we should all do something like that.. put links to help newer members navigate. I'll have to do that soon. And.. ok.. so.. to recap: People do bad things, but instead of hating them for it, we need to help them and teach them not to act the way they have acted in the past. And they're great because... even if they've done bad things, they have the potential to overcome their amorality and become a "normal," moral, helpful part of society? I really want to read the book.. I will as soon as I have time. I know you posted the link to the audiobook, but I just prefer having a physical book.. Thank you! I think it would be great for new members to be able to look at the bottom of any post and know good places to go to get started. I agree with you, I think everyone has inside them the potential to be a contributing member of society. They just need to discover noble values that are resonant to them, and stick by them through thick and thin, which is not always easy, but I believe always pays off. I just finished listening to the audiobook this evening. I'm going back and re-listening to the second half of the book now, and I should be getting my hard copy in the mail this week. Apparently the audiobook is an abridged version. It will be interesting to see what other material is in the physical book.
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punion
Meteorite
Bumps edge souls with an ionic difference of purely charged particles.
Posts: 40
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Post by punion on Apr 5, 2010 4:45:07 GMT -5
[shadow=red,left,300][/shadow]Hey!?! People are not always great.
But life can be known as great--absolutely, unequivocally! That's all stage 5 is--people who know that.
Like Kevin 247 said.
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Post by Andy Glover on Apr 5, 2010 6:18:51 GMT -5
[shadow=red,left,300][/shadow]Hey!?! People are not always great.
But life can be known as great--absolutely, unequivocally! That's all stage 5 is--people who know that.
Like Kevin 247 said. Right you are! By the way I love your disco ball avatar!
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RabbitWho
Star
Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
Posts: 808
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 5, 2010 6:36:59 GMT -5
[shadow=red,left,300][/shadow] But life can be known as great--absolutely, unequivocally! . I don't know about that, I always wondered how it started. I mean someone who beats their children was beaten themselves. It goes right the way back for generations and generations, but I think that the first state was love and peace. I think the first thing to break that peace is not people themselves but life, death and things like that. We can't avoid them and when someone you love dies before their time it creates so much anger and sadness in you that you act out against the whole world. And then that anger and sadness is reflected back at you and you send it out again (even to your own children) and they send it back and out again and it just gets bigger and bigger till we end up with what we've got in the world today. Alright there are some children who are incapable of showing love no matter how much is shown them, but these are rare - most people are reacting to this immense negativity in the world. I heard someone say before: "Depression is negativity turned inwards and aggression is negativity turned outwards." And I think it's true.
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Post by Andy Glover on Apr 5, 2010 6:57:00 GMT -5
Rabbitwho, all that you said, I basically can agree with. But I'm here to raise the question: why embrace the negativity? Why not strive for a way to make the world an awesome place? It's important, I think, to point out that "life is great" and "life can be great" are two very different points of view. "Life is great" could be the state of someone who has already embraced that "life can be great" and has acted on it, and seen a positive return on their actions. "Life can be great" can be embraced by anyone. It is simply a choice, a frame of mind that allows for good things to happen. Here is an excellent ~20-minute talk by Srikumar Rao, on "Plugging into your hard wired happiness." which I think speaks a bit on this idea: On Youtube: Part One: www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7B_4zGHJQg&feature=PlayList&p=878A846B21DC0224&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=16Part Two: www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JpqxHCDctwOr you can watch it on TED.com, where the video is not split into two parts, and I think may be a bit higher resolution. [I'm a nerd] www.ted.com/talks/srikumar_rao_plug_into_your_hard_wired_happiness.html
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Post by asenir on Apr 7, 2010 9:02:09 GMT -5
My opinion is that its all a state of mind. A lvl 5 tribe would consist of people who all try to make to world better for eachother and everyone else. Life as we know it has some negative aspects, but we shouldnt think about things like that becouse then we forget the main idea. To Make life great! For everyone! Many things have been said and i dont want to repeat them, but i completly agree with them. Many ppl said this to me before, and from my personal experience too, i came to that conclucsion: Its all in your headWe as humans are able (and always were able) to look at things from a different point of view. And that breeds understanding. With understanding eachoter our minds can work freely and combine to achive Goals, that an individual, wouldnt acomplish by himself. On the "hate" mather, i would say, if you dont like someone (we all know a person or a group wich we dont like... i think) Its mainly becouse we dont understand what made them do what they did... Many bad ppl cant help their agression or depression and many of them try to better themselves. On the negative energy. Well we all know energy doesnt disappear, it only transforms. If someone was beeing beaten in his childhood, that parent transfered a massive amout of negative energy inside him(this has been said before) so he needs to burst it out for his own sake. However there is help to achive to free yourself from negative emotions, bad habbits, emberasing moments (etc) wich all carry some sort of bad feeling. Its called EFT (Emotional freedom technique) If anyone is interested you can look it up on google or ask me, I think i have some pdf files i could share. well pfew... had so much to say sorry for the long text, bad gramar + english ^^
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Post by dibwys on Apr 8, 2010 15:50:29 GMT -5
Everyone is great. Even Hitler had friends and a wife. Sure, they might have also been fanatical, but they were still people and they still thought he was great. So did much of Nazi Germany, while it lasted. Some people are just greater than others. I think level five is about understanding that great people are perfectly capable of doing not-great things, and thinking they're great anyway. If you're having issues with finding someone's greatness, think of them as a baby. Their parents obviously didn't just let them starve, so they must've thought they were at least a little bit great
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countofvilareal
Meteorite
trust is something earned, not something given
Posts: 7
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Post by countofvilareal on Apr 9, 2010 10:36:04 GMT -5
I heard someone on the internet, and I can't remember for the life who it was except that it was a woman... She said: "Hating people is pointless, the only person you hurt with hate is yourself. Half of the people who you hate don't know that you hate them and the other half don't care." the most true sentence i've heard in a very very long time.it's sad that the majority of people will never fully understand this, or let's say, want to understand this.
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Post by Joey on Apr 9, 2010 11:59:40 GMT -5
I was watching a survivor of the holocaust talk to a school, and she said that before we can do anything, we must first stop hating each other. We need to see that there is nothing wrong with being different, and we need to stop hating people for being different. She said once we got that done, we can change the world.
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Post by krzych32 on Apr 13, 2010 22:20:08 GMT -5
Ok here is the thing, the whole idea of "tribes" and "leves" was created by human beings, so its not perfect. It's just another way of understanding how society works, but its not going to provide all anwsers.
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Post by straemer on Apr 14, 2010 20:36:13 GMT -5
Alright, so what is evil? Is a person evil, or are his/her actions evil? I personally do not see people as being evil, nor do I see them as being good. The problem lies in that good cannot exist without evil. Look at it as a relativistic thing. If there exist only 3 people, one person may see one person as being better than the other. The other person would be perceived to be evil to this person by relativism. Even if this person would never hurt a fly, (s)he is the most evil person in this hypothetical universe, as there is nobody "more evil" to compare to. Another problem that arises with perceiving people as good/evil rather than their actions is that it ignores the fact that a person can change. Being a complete nerd, I'm going to use Star Wars as an example. (If you haven't seen Star Wars, I'll put a line of asterisks after the spoilers ) Darth Vader commits some of the most evil deeds in the series, killing anyone in sight. If we were to consider anyone evil, it would be him, or possibly the Emperor. However, we see that he is still a "good" person, as he saves Luke from the Emperor. Now with this is it fair to say he is good or evil? No, he is just simply a person. **************************************************************************** Now the issue with considering everyone to be "great". This would depend of course on how one considers people to be "great". We cannot use great in this sense to say that they are better than other people, because well... That just creates a massive paradox. Instead of seeing someone to be great for what they do, they should be considered great for what they are: people that think, experience emotions, love, hate, etc. In that sense, everyone is great.
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