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Post by Insane_Zang on May 3, 2011 1:12:43 GMT -5
Holy fuck man let us have fun with victory
That applies to all of this conversation.
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Linus
Star
Life is complex; it has both real and imaginary components
Posts: 614
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Post by Linus on May 3, 2011 2:46:06 GMT -5
I like how Tyler O put it: "The world should celebrate when an evil man sees the error in his ways, not when he's killed while proud of what he's done." We tried to take him alive. He said no (well guns did most of the talking). We were supposed to keep giving him chances? What if we never found him again. Also yes I moved a bit off topic with that Were you there?
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Post by bombmaniac on May 3, 2011 6:56:34 GMT -5
fucks sake linus
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Post by Freddy on May 3, 2011 7:32:01 GMT -5
lol
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Post by Flags_Forever on May 3, 2011 8:24:21 GMT -5
oh...and lightsider...youre a wonderful little sheep Excuse me? Don't you fucking start with me, Asher.
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Post by Insane_Zang on May 3, 2011 8:56:32 GMT -5
We tried to take him alive. He said no (well guns did most of the talking). We were supposed to keep giving him chances? What if we never found him again. Also yes I moved a bit off topic with that Were you there? I'm speaking on behalf of America, as Obama did when he took credit for Bin Laden's death
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Post by Ricky on May 3, 2011 9:09:51 GMT -5
I think what Linus is trying to say is not that you personally are responsible for his death but that rather you don't know if that's the truth on how it happened.
< not making the point, just trying to clarify it.
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Post by Ryan on May 3, 2011 12:29:12 GMT -5
Terror can not be defeated. It is a frame of mind and it will always exist as long as there is something to fear. There is still something to fear. Osama may be dead, but the cult he created still has power. We may be free of an evil man, but we don't know how his death will impact the world.
Osama bin Laden did not receive justice. Yeah - he's dead and he might deserve to be dead. But he died quickly with a gun shot to the face. That's a relatively painless way to go.
I might have been too quick to say Osama won, but I don't think I was to quick to judge our mindset. What good comes of spending 10 years and $656 billion dollars and losing 1000s of lives to kill a man who spreads terror? 10 years ago we were united against oppression, and now we are not. Yesterday we united in the revelry of the death of an evil man, but yesterday was nothing compared to 9/12. With that unity we could have done so much more, and now our country is in no better a state than it was 10 years ago. With one exception of course, Osama is dead.
We can't fight terror with war. What we can do is do what we did in 2001. We can stand united and say, "You don't scare us, we are America, and we are not afraid. We will do what we do best, and you are allowed to hate us for it. We will continue to teach our children. We will continue to be free. We will continue to have capitalism and free trade. We will allow any and all religions to be practiced. You may try to terrorize us, but you will never strike the foundation of what we stand for. We are America and we are strong."
If we want to fight terror, don't do it with guns.
(BTW lightsider, I'm going to agree with asher on the sheep comment)
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Post by bombmaniac on May 3, 2011 13:21:47 GMT -5
thats a nice sentiment but a little naive. you assume that the terrorists would just say "hurrrrrrrrr...the murricans arent pissing their pants...lets stop blowing SHIRT up" but you do realize that war says that right? now you may say that the simple act of ignoring them will just make them go away...but thats not how it works. they BELIEVE that it is their duty to kill us...whether were terrified or not. when we go to war we send a clear message. fuck with us well fuck you worse. personally i think thats a better option. now war is never ideal because there are casualties on both sides, but your moral high ground is shaky. waaaaaaay to idealistic. i suppose you would also say to fight terror with education...good luck. i explained what good comes of it. but let me give you an example you can wrap your mind around. suppose you have a sleeping giant. this giant likes sleeping...thats its occupation. it sleeps. and this mouse comes up and pokes it in teh rib...it ignores it and goes back to sleep. this keeps happening every day for a year. the giant never bothers because the mouse seems so insignificant it really isnt worth dignifying the mouse with a reaction. the mouse gets bolder and bolder, moving to other parts of the body ubntil finally one day it pokes teh giant in teh eye. the giant considers for a second...think of all the sleep lost...over one stupid little mouse...but then he remembers all the little jabs...the mouse getting more and more audacious...and he gets up and smashes the mouse. a whole hour of precious sleep. lost. was it worth it? or should the giant have stood on principle saying "the mouse wants me to get up...therefore i will NOT! i will remain here being poked in the eye until the mouse gives up or drops dead of old age. no one is saying that the war on terror is over. but this was a small victory and ought to be celebrated as such. an evil man, a mass murderer of americans and his own kind, was killed. sure we have what to work on, but that does NOT change the victory that was osama's killing. i don tthink anyone thinks that osama was the be all and end all, but he was the icon, the archetype of al quaeda and that icon is now destroyed. you talk of standing up to terror. what do you think al quaeda was? a name spoken with a slight hint of trepidation. fears of al quaeda attacks worldwide with osama bin laden at its head. that head is gone...al quaeda is no longer the boogey man it once was in teh eyes of the world. mission accomplished. Happy Dead Osama Day and fucks sake lightsider...think for yourself
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Post by Ryan on May 3, 2011 13:30:55 GMT -5
You're right, my stance might be a bit idealistic. And it may in fact be naive - after all, most people are stupid (especially a good number of americans as well as many afghani people).
Your analogy is also naive though.
Instead of a sleeping giant it's more like a sleeping bear. And instead of a mouse its more like a baby wolf. Every day the baby wolf bothers the big sleeping bear, and every day the sleeping bear ignores it. But over time the baby wolf becomes an adult wolf, fully capable of harming the big bear, and as it has grown it becomes more confident in its attempts to annoy and disrupt the big bears sleep. Now, as you said, the big bear can wake up and take on the (in my case) wolf. But the big bear is not going to walk away from that battle without some grevious wounds.
The big bear could also just wake up, then the wolf is most likely not going to bother it.
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Post by bombmaniac on May 3, 2011 13:33:43 GMT -5
wake up and what? smile?
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Post by Ryan on May 3, 2011 13:52:41 GMT -5
Wake up and understand why they hate us - solve our side of the problem. Bin Laden hated americans because we - through war- defiled something sacred to him. We aren't making things any better at the moment, the reason for hate is still there. There's still a reason for the wolf to poke us in the eye.
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Post by Insane_Zang on May 3, 2011 14:19:01 GMT -5
I think the sleeping, in Asher's case, was not looking away or not thinking about it, but doing what it wants to do. The point of waking up is doing what it doesn't want to do. So you're supposed to give in and wake up, or in this case, stop doing what you want to do?
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Post by Ryan on May 3, 2011 14:31:51 GMT -5
If it means that you can avoid a conflict with a wolf? yes.
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Post by bombmaniac on May 3, 2011 14:53:26 GMT -5
why though? for the sole purpose of avoiding conflict? thats hardly a valid reason
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Post by SwimFellow on May 3, 2011 14:58:17 GMT -5
Guys, I think we can all agree that it's a good thing that bin Laden died, but I wouldn't celebrate. I agree with Mark Twain the most..
"I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure." - Mark Twain
THOUGH we CAN tell jokes about his death because of how awful he was.
My joke: I'm liking bin Laden's new hideout. At the bottom of the ocean.
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Post by Ryan on May 3, 2011 15:13:42 GMT -5
Conflict begets conflict - back to Gandhi - "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" If we want anything to get better in the world - the conflicts have to stop. And besides, isn't that one of the original purposes of the moon - end world suck? doesn't conflict suck?
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Post by Flags_Forever on May 3, 2011 15:46:38 GMT -5
(BTW lightsider, I'm going to agree with asher on the sheep comment) and fucks sake lightsider...think for yourself How am I not thinking for myself? That i'm just agreeing with what others have already said? Well, those opinions just happened to parallel my own. I wanted to make my opinion known, and since typing is very hard for me (I have muscular dystrophy), I figured that was easier. You want to say I don't think for myself? Go right ahead, but you didn't know my reasons, and you don't know me, so fuck you. I'm not going to visit the Debate Club anymore. And Asher? You're a horrible moderator.
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Post by SwimFellow on May 3, 2011 16:11:01 GMT -5
[offtopic]SPOILERS TO PORTAL 2 VV "He's (Wheatley) the product of the greatest minds of a generation working together with the express purpose of building the dumbest moron who ever lived. And you just put him in charge of the entire facility. [slow clap]" Also applies to Asher.[/offtopic] [ontopic] The man violated human justice. I'm not going to celebrate his death, even though he has done so many bad things that have hurt us all. That said, I'll joke about him and his life. But that's not quite the same as celebrating his death.
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Post by Freddy on May 3, 2011 16:19:28 GMT -5
Good. That's still working.
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