Religions and value #7

[schcrunch01]

Ok, so if you haven't watched Dan's new video, than do so before reading this. I am completely all for this tribe and i too am very excited about what could come of this community.

But there is an issue that has been ongoing for a while now that i think is very important. Over the last month or so, we've been getting into the topic of religion. Lots of people have been arguing about what they believe to be true. And that in itself in great, and is a good sign of a growing, and organic community.

But when i watched Dan Browns new video, something hit me. Value number 7 states "Stand by what we know to be true". This sounds great, but we all have different ideas and beliefs about a lot of things, and religion (or no religion) is a big one.

So, unless i am misinterpreting the meaning the value, I think this could be a serious problem. Should we all be forced to believe the same thing, or kick people out that don't believe what the majority believe? Both of these things sound rediculas, but how can the tribe stand by what it believes when we all believe different things?

[Camoon]

I'm not too sure about this value either.

I think a much better value would be:
Question everything.

[TheIslander]

You stand by what you believe is true, but you should also debate it and discuss it to formulate your opinion even better.
At school we are "fed facts", we then go out into the real world and debate these facts further... to form a solid opinion. We are here to discuss our opinions and form them even better.

[Joey]

I think it means to stand by what you believe in, and what we believe in as a tribe(decreaseing world suck). And whatever you choose to believe in, stand by it 100 percent.

[chelseeyuh]

I think that in relation to religion, you can't say that religious beliefs are facts. So you need to use your logic and stand by what is scientific fact even if it goes against your religious beliefs.

[spongydoom]

No one knows neither god exist or not, and if he does, what religion does he prefer.
Therefor, Religion should not be one of this tribe's issues.

[TheIslander]

Also, these are Values NOT rules.

[cooltiger413]

I think:

Stand by what you believe in = Don't be a zombie

We could all also believe in different things but if we all stand by it we are still following this value. If somebody convinces you to change sides your allowed to. But once again don't be a zombie and just switch because somebody told you to.

[TsukikoSuoh]

If we stand by what WE know as true then we are open to peaceful debates within us. There is no way to truly have 100% conformity, nor do we WANT 100% conformity.

I think that this value is only saying that we shouldn't just submit to other people's opinions, that we should stand with our opinions bravely and be able to defend ourselves even as we grow and change. We should be able to have discussions about these controversial topics *religion, politics, etc* while still staying a Tribe no matter our differing opinions.

[stephen5000]

The problem arises when we have to determine what is true and what isn't Many of the things we consider to be "truths" about the universe may indeed be simply beliefs. For example, many religious people would consider the revelations of their holy books to be truths about the world.

Also, even history (especially the really old stuff) may or may not be true. "Stand by what we know to be true" sums up things simply, but something like, "Make as few assumptions about the world as possible" might be more accurate.

[jaina]

I think values 7-9 all apply to this thread.

Just to recap:

7. Stand by what we know to be true.

8. Accept that we don't know everything.

9. Welcome ALL who stand by these values.

We are allowed to believe what we know personally to be true to ourselves, but as such we should not persecute others for what they believe to be true.

I also think that outright saying that someone's truth is wrong, without being willing to say that you don't know everything and that you are willing to consider what they're saying, to be un-useful.

I think this might be a little late, but I think there should be part of a value to not call other names based off of their beliefs. Playful insults aside, saying nasty things to people can rip apart a community of any size of people.

I think there should be a "Strive to be courteous to all even if we disagree" added somehow. I felt this was a big part of one of Dan's recent videos when he mentioned actually having a discussion without turning into one big mess. (I can't remember the exact quote.)

[leviroseman]

Mar 30, 2010 17:23:47 GMT -5 Camoon said:

I'm not too sure about this value either.

I think a much better value would be:
Question everything.

iommented this on the tube:D

[chri4481]

It kinda makes sense I guess. I think each member should stand by any beliefs they have. They will create valid points in debates which will show different views and contribute the debate.

[Felix]

Well, the value is "Stand by what we know to be true"
and not "Stand by what we believe in".
The difference is that number one has a rather scientific approach while number two has a religious one. We can still have religious freedom and agree with the scientific knowledge we have, because we know that science doesn't trick us. And as Dan made clear in his religious discussion with the blue office chair "Eddie", science and faith don't disagree and if you want to convert anyone to your religion you don't go with value 8 and therefore you are not a member of this tribe, since we only accept those who stand by our values (value 9).
That's what value 7 means to me.

[chelseeyuh]

Mar 31, 2010 17:47:22 GMT -5 Felix said:

Well, the value is "Stand by what we know to be true"
and not "Stand by what we believe in".
The difference is that number one has a rather scientific approach while number two has a religious one. We can still have religious freedom and agree with the scientific knowledge we have, because we know that science doesn't trick us. And as Dan made clear in his religious discussion with the blue office chair "Eddie", science and faith don't disagree and if you want to convert anyone to your religion you don't go with value 8 and therefore you are not a member of this tribe, since we only accept those who stand by our values (value 9).
That's what value 7 means to me.

I agree. I don't think "stand by what you believe in" is at all like "stand by what we know to be true."

But Dan's making videos about each value, so I'm sure the confusion will be cleared up when that video goes up.

[viking97]

i'm not sure this applies to religion but dan did say he would elaborate on each value so i guess we'll see soon

[Felix]

Yeah, sure, Dan will make a video about it but we're part of the tribe just like him so it won't hurt us to discuss this and make sure we all think the same about it so we can later go on to achieving real goals instead of fighting about the mainthings.

[mrtoastguard]

yeah a video is coming on the is coming april 7th

[ligerman30]

can't we all accept that religon doesn't violate the 7th. The 7th tennet says stand by what WE know meaning us as an individual not nessecarrily YOU, if a person believes in magical faries and whole-heartedly believes in it by the 10th tenent he is allowed in the pogo tribe. it is "what we know to be true" not "what is true". And if one tries to push their belief(or lack therof) on others it breaks the 8th tenent.

[Deleted]

I think about everything logical on this subject has been said above, but there's one thing I want to say:

A lot of people have been saying that this value isn't about religion, but about science. I think that's a big mistake. The beauty of this value is that you will have a community of people with different visions who are willing to discuss them peacefully. That will get us to gain more knowledge, more insight and will be a great achievement.

Also, standing by what you believe to be true doesn't necessarily mean that you can't
A) learn new things
B) learn to accept other people's views
C) see the logic in other people's ideas and eventually maybe agree with them

As for religion as a topic, I love to talk about it, but it is a dangerous topic. Not everyone has the self-relativation that's needed to talk about this. In discussion about religion, you need to be able to shove your own ego and a lot of what you think to be true asside for a moment and try to listen to other people.
And that is a hard thing to do...