Atheism in a Christian Culture

[Nakor]

<DISCLAIMER> This thread is intended as a discussion for aspects of Christian culture that can (and some that perhaps should) be kept in practice by atheists. As such, the thread will contain assumptions that God does not or probably does not exist, because that's what atheism is. If you want to argue that God does exist, please use one of the available religion threads; I would like to keep this discussion focused on what traditionally Christian practices atheists from a Christian background may wish to keep in their lives. The religious are welcome to discuss the topic if they like, but please keep to the topic of what those who lack belief in God might want to borrow from Christianity. </DISCLAIMER>

Note: I focus this on Christian culture because that is what I know. I'm fully aware there are other religious cultures in the world, but I am not aware of what those cultures are like and so cannot speak on them. Feel free to discuss those points as well if you like; it may actually be worth making a separate thread if you feel there is a lot to discuss about atheism in another very different religious culture.

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I read a term once "Christian Atheism" (The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality, by Andre Comte-Sponville -- a book I highly recommend to anyone who debates religion, especially on the matter of religious tolerance) which, while I think it's inaccurate, is interesting. (Perhaps "Western Atheism" is more accurate?) Comte-Sponville suggested that atheists living in a western culture can still take a lot of their Christian culture with them even after choosing to leave the church. In fact, even atheists raised as atheists, who were never Christians to begin with, may find benefit from some of the practices in the church or the religion in general.

For example (and this one of my own creation, not from the book), a common Christian tradition is saying grace before dinner (or any meal in some cases). While asking a God you don't believe exists to bless food would obviously be rather silly, I think we can agree that being thankful for food is not -- we even have a wholly non-religious holiday (Thanksgiving Day) dedicated to thankfulness, which was originally to give thanks for the harvest (this is why it falls on different days depending on the country you live in). While I don't mean to say that every atheist should come up with long, colourful secular graces to say before every meal, I think that remembering the farmers and labourers and everyone else that had a part in the fact that we do, in fact, have food to eat is a very positive thing. (The Japanese say "Itadakimasu" before each meal, and "Gochisousama deshita" after as a sort of giving-thanks ritual that is non-religious in nature.)

Other interesting topics of this nature can include marriage and funeral ceremonies held in secular fashion. After all, even atheists want to have a great marriage ceremony to signify their love for each other, and the families and friends of atheists still need an outlet for their sadness -- a last chance to remember their loved one together -- after a friend or family member's death.

I welcome discussion on any of the specific aspects I addressed here in the opening post, but I'd also like to encourage anyone to post other traditionally Christian practices that atheists might find of value in their lives (either as-is, or with a secular twist of some sort). The floor is open!

[T3CHN0B4BBL3]

Love Your Enemies: Luke 7:19-36.

Words to live by.

[bleabot]

In the Chicago Tribune this Sunday, I saw an article that curiously goes along with this a bit. It is a group of atheists that started a "club" of sorts...but they work with religious groups to better the world. For example, they worked with the United Methodist Church to raise funds for homeless shelters, if I remember correctly. I just skimmed through the article, but I'll come back tomorrow and summarize it more. It was a pretty cool example of coexisting peacefully and, more importantly, efficiently.

[UnfairBear]

I think there are a good few traditions that are considered to be Christian Traditions that aren't originally or wholly Christian. Christmas for example took a load of Pagan traditions and added to them to make the Christmas we have today (more or less). But Jesus wasn't even born on December 25th apparently anyway. So when we celebrate Christmas, as well as celebrating Christian Traditions, we're celebrating Pagan and other traditions although we don't really think of it that way.

I kinda wonder whether or nto marriage was originally a religious tradition. Well, it probably was but still. There's a lot of traditions within a marriage ceremony that aren't anything to do with religion, they were just picked up through the years as a result of different cultures. For example the bride is sometimes walked down the aisle by her father these days, but this tradition of "giving away the bride" came from when fathers would trade their daughters to be married in exchange for like, a cow or something and sometime's they'd be dragged kicking and screaming. Which is pretty awful but has nothing to do with religion, even though it would have been a religious tradition.

What I'm trying to get at is religious traditions aren't alway realigious traditions... And I think in that was it's easy to follow them if you're an atheist because you can just take from them what you want, and that can be great, like what Nakor was saying about saying grace. Also I have lots of atheist friends who give stuff up for lent, just cause it can be good for them.

[clairemckenna]

Apr 14, 2010 7:40:03 GMT -5 UnfairBear said:

What I'm trying to get at is religious traditions aren't alway realigious traditions... And I think in that was it's easy to follow them if you're an atheist because you can just take from them what you want, and that can be great, like what Nakor was saying about saying grace. Also I have lots of atheist friends who give stuff up for lent, just cause it can be good for them.

I agree! I think a lot of the Christian holidays and traditions are also rooted in general moral values that anyone can appreciate whether they believe in the Christian God or not. Like around Christmas, there is a general message of love and family and just being good to fellow man. At Easter we can all celebrate a message of forgiveness and recognize that everyone makes mistakes.

I had no idea the Japanese have that ritual at meals and I think its a fantastic example of how to include similar traditions in a non-religious way.

Atheists should look to emphasize the positive values these various "religious" holidays provide rather than, perhaps, being dismissive of them, and that way everyone can have reason to celebrate!

[Nakor]

That's a good point. While they may not be Christian in origin though, they are now part of the culture, and while we (atheists) may not embrace the religion itself, we don't have to reject the culture at all.

Lent is a great example UnfairBear! I never thought of it as it wasn't ever a tradition at my family's church. (I couldn't even tell you when it is lol.) But it's a great example of something anyone can borrow from the culture.

And being an atheist has certainly never diminished my Christmas at all. (Frankly it's as much a western holiday these days as a Christian one anyway.) As for paganism, I've been known to endorse the winter/summer solstices as sufficient excuse to celebrate. The middle of summer is an easy enough excuse to have fun, and as for winter solstice, that's when days begin to grow longer again, which must be worth celebrating, right? It's no different at all than any other seasonal celebration like a harvest festival (Thanksgiving Day).

[Deleted]

Apr 13, 2010 16:09:40 GMT -5 Nakor said:

The Japanese say "Itadakimasu" before each meal, and "Gochisousama deshita" after as a sort of giving-thanks ritual that is non-religious in nature.

I'm sorry, but as a university student of Japanese language and culture, I have to correct you here.
いただきます(or itadakimasu) does literally mean "Thank you for the meal" and is directed to the one(s) who prepared and/or provide the food. And　ごちそうさま (gochisousama) means basically the same, but after the meal.
But these are more closely related to for example "Bon apétit" in French than actually giving thanks for the meal. The meaning has weakened and it has become more of a standard, to be polite.

Now to be a little bit on topic:
I believe that religions in general are a good way to transfer moral and ethical values trough generations. However, that's not the only way to do it, we call it general culture. As you can see, Atheïsts aren't bad people, so we have a same sense of morals and ethics.
The problem with religions like Christianity and Islam, that for example Buddhism doesn't have, is that they believe that it's their duty to make everyone belief the same in order to "salivate" (is that the right word?) them. I know that there's a term for religions like this, but I can't seem to remember it T_T.
Baseline is: this belief that they are to convert other people, and that they are the only true ones, leads to an unwillingness to listen to others and to learn new things.

[Nakor]

Very well, my turn to correct you then. While not the literal meaning of the words, and perhaps somewhat dumbed down by usage, thankfulness is still the intention of the words. And actually, you have the literal meanings wrong. Itadakimasu is just the humble version of "to receive." (It can also be the humble version of "to eat." Taberu and Morau both become Itadaku in the humble tense. Perhaps the Japanese thought that "receive" was a nicer way of saying "eat" in the humble.) Gochisousama Deshita is literally "it was a feast." (Gochisou = Feast.) Neither uses the word 'thank' in the literal sense. They are still, however, intended as giving thanks, especially in circumstances where someone else is treating you. And while they may be as common as bon apétit or saying 'bless you' after someone sneezes, the inherent meaning remains. (Besides, I'm not sure there's much of a gap between politeness and thankfulness. The latter naturally follows the former.)

"Salivate" is what you do when you're staring at really tasty food. Perhaps the prior topic affected you lol. The words you're looking for are "save" and "salvation." (They "save" you, you are "saved," you find "salvation.") And yeah, the whole convert everyone thing is annoying from those churches that attempt it.

[Deleted]

Apr 15, 2010 11:24:22 GMT -5 Nakor said:

"Salivate" is what you do when you're staring at really tasty food. Perhaps the prior topic affected you lol.

hahaha
Yeah, you're right about the literal meaning, what I meant was the common translation.
Guess you're more right than me then But Japanese is such a complicated language
Thanks explaining

[Nakor]

I find Japanese to be a fun topic, I've been studying it for some time. This September I'm going to UBC after having worked a few years to save up cash and I'm going for English and Modern Languages majors. (My other language being German.) Then I've been thinking I'd take the high school teaching course and apply for a position as a teacher here in BC. The one nice thing about Japanese is that, unlike English, it actually sticks to most (most) of the rules it sets. Same with German lol.

[Cortney]

You don't have to be religious to be a good person or to do good things. Rather than say, "hey, you don't believe in the Christian God, but you can do these things without actually following the religion" I'd rather just say "hey, be a good person."

I've always been bothered by people linking morals with religion. You may or may not see it this way, this thread just made me think of that. It annoys me.

This brings to mind the fact that a lot of atheists who are genuinely good people are way more deserving of gratitude than Christians who are good people, mainly because the atheists do it with no incentive other than being good. They don't use kindness and morality as a means to an end.

[Nakor]

Oh, I agree. It's just that in some cases a Christian converting to atheism will simply avoid anything priorly Christian, and in other cases we're misrepresented as opposing Christian things (It surprises me sometimes how many people can be confused by the fact that atheists still celebrate Christmas. Reactions like "but Jews don't so why do atheists?" Then there are those who think we're trying to end Christmas or something....), so I thought it would be an interesting topic.