Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Apr 22, 2010 11:55:41 GMT -5
This is something I've never quite understood that well. Even when I was still a churchgoer, before dropping religion, our church never really touched on the old testament at all, aside from a few bible stories that were taught as metaphorical (noah, moses, etc.).
The explanation you usually hear is that "Jesus died for our sins." But that's a short version, and I always wondered if there was more to it than than.
I mean, God was really rather nasty in the old testament. He was vengeful, violent and jealous. He killed a lot. Then the second the new testament rolls around, this entire attitude apparently comes to a sudden, screeching halt. Not after Jesus's death either, but right from the start of Jesus showing up.
But I don't really get the connection. I mean, it's God who put him there. Why does God putting his own son on Earth, and then us humans killing him, somehow totally change the way God treats His people for the better? Fatherhood mellowed him out? We know from the bible that Jesus isn't being punished up in heaven in our stead, so that's not it. I guess I just don't see the connect from God put his son on Earth, stuff happens, we kill His son, His son resurrects, and then God stops killing people after that. Or rather, stops killing people the second he puts His son here in the first place. Personally, I'd expect Him to be pissed off about the crucifixion; I would be.
Anyway, there are lots of disconnects in the bible I don't get and never will I suppose, but I've never so much as heard this one explained beyond "he died for our sins." If there is any Christian out there who knows the answer in more detail, my thanks in advance for explaining it.
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RabbitWho
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Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 22, 2010 13:20:13 GMT -5
Loads of people were Jewish, believed in the old testament, Jesus came, was all like hey, yeah, Adam and eve, but peace and love, and they were like hey yeah that makes sense, lots of them followed Jesus but were still Jewish. Lots of them stayed Jewish and did not follow Jesus.
So the Jewish followers of Jesus kept their Jewish book but with this new interpretation of their Jewish God.
Of course the word jewish didn't exist back then but that's basically it.
Why Christians didn't scrap all the bits that contradict what Jesus said though ,that I can't figure out.
- God created the world in 6 days and on the seventh day he rested
- Kill gay people
- Don't have adultery
- God may at sometime expect you to kill your own child for him, just for the craic
I think the whole "He who is without sin cast the first stone thing" should make everybody realize that it is gods place to judge and they are not allowed to comment. But nobody gives a shite about the bible they just choose the bits they like best and use them as an excuse for their own hatred.
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Post by Trey on Apr 22, 2010 13:37:43 GMT -5
"The Law was meant to show us how imperfect we are, and we would never be saved no matter how hard we tried to follow it. Jesus died for our sins, so we don't have to follow the law anymore." ~ Typical Christian Belief
Remember, the Bible was written by man, not by God. It also took presumably 1,600 years to write. 1,600 years creates a huge window for culture to change.
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Apr 22, 2010 14:16:24 GMT -5
So the law bit is that Jesus' death signified that it's impossible for us (humans) to follow the law, and basically not to bother trying any more? Except for the commandments of course.
Is that also why God stopped smiting people left and right afterwards?
I do get the culture change, I was just trying to figure out how the sudden change in the way God acts is rationalized since.
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RabbitWho
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Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 22, 2010 14:30:05 GMT -5
No, Jesus said to follow him, to give away everything we have to those who have less and to follow him. He said it was easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than a rich man to get into heaven. He said to love one another. He said not to hurt anyone or judge anyone.
Those are the new laws and they cancel out any old law that contradicts. That's the idea.
Of course the new testament isn't all love and kindness, the book of revelations is an acid trip. But I think the red letter Christians seem to have the best idea.
I dunno how they rationalized it, it's pretty clear to me Jesus was a super leader and great organizer of people, a Gahndi type who wanted to put an end to suffering in the world. he even said "Don't tell people i'm the messiah!" To the apostles so maybe he never wanted to be worshipped as a god.
The reason why the two parts are together is simply that all the first christians were jews, and this was an extension.
If the new Messiah, the second coming came tomorrow, those people who believed in both wouldn't throw out the last two testaments, they'd stick them on again, but the newest bit would be what they stuck to. While the Christians disregarded the newest bit and the jews disregarded both newer bits and the Muslims disregarded one newer bit but kept two older bits.
At least that's how i understand it, what do I know, god hates me because I'm an atheist.
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Apr 22, 2010 15:02:10 GMT -5
Ah, okay, the law thing makes sense then. (Aside from if God was perfect why he didn't have it that way in the first place lol.) So it's only a matter of figuring out why God started being a generally Nice Guy. Or rather, stopped doing, well, anything. (Did he do anything after Jesus' death other than the resurrection? I can't remember if anything in the bible covers acts of god post-Jesus.)
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mollybeth92
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Post by mollybeth92 on Apr 22, 2010 15:22:07 GMT -5
I think that in the Old Testament, God believed that all humans were dirty, nasty, sinful people that didn't deserve to enter Heaven; he made it virtually impossible to do so. After a while, he saw that since even the "good" people that followed every word of the Bible (including the stuff that contradicted something else) couldn't get into Heaven, people stopped trying. They figured there was no point in being "perfect Christians" if you get the same fate as the worst. God saw that this was wrong, so he offered his only son as 1) a gateway between Earth and Heaven, 2) a promise that things were going to change and 3) an apology for the way he had been treating man kind. From then on, everything was about love and forgiveness.
I'm not sure if he directly did anything after Jesus' death. I think he did it through Jesus.
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Post by Joey on Apr 22, 2010 17:38:37 GMT -5
The thing ive been taught is that you could call it the old covenant and the new covenant. God made a covenant to send a savior, and when that happend, The new covenant replaced the old.
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Post by mashuga31 on Apr 22, 2010 20:36:24 GMT -5
I think that in the Old Testament, God believed that all humans were dirty, nasty, sinful people that didn't deserve to enter Heaven; he made it virtually impossible to do so. After a while, he saw that since even the "good" people that followed every word of the Bible (including the stuff that contradicted something else) couldn't get into Heaven, people stopped trying. They figured there was no point in being "perfect Christians" if you get the same fate as the worst. God saw that this was wrong, so he offered his only son as 1) a gateway between Earth and Heaven, 2) a promise that things were going to change and 3) an apology for the way he had been treating man kind. From then on, everything was about love and forgiveness. I'm not sure if he directly did anything after Jesus' death. I think he did it through Jesus. I like this answer. |
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Apr 22, 2010 23:47:54 GMT -5
So in short, the common consensus is that it really was a case of God mellowing out and cleaning up His act, once He saw that His standards were way too high.
It kind of takes the anthropomorphism to a whole new level lol....
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RabbitWho
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Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 23, 2010 4:53:44 GMT -5
3) an apology for the way he had been treating man kind. From then on, everything was about love and forgiveness. Hee hee, an apology. So he was wrong? We are great and deserve to be treated nicely and if god can't see that screw him. |
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Post by Trey on Apr 23, 2010 6:37:03 GMT -5
So in short, the common consensus is that it really was a case of God mellowing out and cleaning up His act, once He saw that His standards were way too high. It kind of takes the anthropomorphism to a whole new level lol.... Wait.. So, God isn't perfect? Attachments:
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Post by kawerty on Apr 28, 2010 6:23:09 GMT -5
Hey wait,the only change i do see is ; After he got himself a Son,He got more Sensible and sensitive. Thats all.
TRANSITION :
Grumpy mean petty God -> AFTER SEX AND SON -> Sensible,gentle,caring guy.(Which soon after got in 'Retirement' and let his Son take over the business.)
See it?
Is it that hard to believe a child can change a man? A cute child can melt the heart of many ; Even GOD .
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