Living in a Godless world

[StarF]

Cross posted from starf.tumblr.com/

As I was browsing the Newgrounds BBS as I generally do (And have been since 2003) I came across a post that caught my attention. This post read as follows:

"This isn’t meant to start a theological debate, as I know you all are incapable of common decency when speaking on this matter. In fact, it’s more for atheists or agnostics who struggle with faith, and that don’t believe, or struggle to believe in God.

From an early age I was raised a protestant Christian. There were rare times that I went to church every weekend (there was about 6 months after 9/11 that my family went to church every weekend), and like most Christian kids nowadays, I really didn’t care about what was being spoken. It’s not that the reverend wasn’t cool, he was, or that I didn’t care about faith, I did. It was that I simply didn’t care beyond the basics. Jesus rose from the dead, I get presents on Christmas, and when I die I go to heaven… if I’m a good person. That’s all I really cared about. The moral lessons, the far fetched tales… they didn’t appeal to me.

As I got older, I moved away from Christianity. Not on purpose, or rapidly… it was over a period of years, and simply due to intellect and critical thinking rather than any sort of revelation or anything of that sort. I used to speak to God every night… and I can honestly say I felt like someone was there. One night I was talking and I just, felt like no one was there. Like I was talking to myself. I’d do anything to have that feeling back. To know that there was this all knowing, all caring being that created me, and that when I died, I’d go to him and he would make me happy beyond my wildest dreams.

It hurts thinking about that. There’s nothing in the world I wouldn’t do to get my faith back, to feel… no, to know that there was a God. To know that I would eventually go to heaven, and live there eternally. These things don’t come naturally to me anymore, and in fact… I have to struggle to even force myself into the illusion that these things are even remotely true.

I take drugs because of this. Lots of drugs. I drown in them everytime I think about how worthless my existence is. How when I die, no one shall care, and I shall drift away into nothingness. I think about my existence as a whole, and no matter how many scenarios I run through my head of how my life can go, it all ends in the same depressing, empty epilogue. This could come off as what some would call emo, but these emotions are not nearly that juvenile. They aren’t angst, or self pity. They are pure and utter depression compounded by a sense of limited to no self worth, all thanks to growing up in this Godless world.

I’d say I’m curious about your opinions on all this, but frankly I’m pretty positive I know what they are. There is, however, those among you that provide riveting conversation at times, so I welcome you to share your thoughts on God in today’s society and how it effects the psyche of the youth, and how that differs from the youth growing up in society anywhere from 200-600 years ago."

Ironically this post was made by a person with the alias of Jezuz. Now I didn’t really reply directly to that last inquiry, but rather to the main points he made about depression and whatnot. This was my reply:

"Well I can relate to a certain extent, but not completely. In my case I was raised Christian, all that good stuff, and as a kid I just kind of went with it, whatever. Then as I started to grow up, think more for myself, talk to other people on forums and have debates on the subject, eventually drifted far away from that. And my family isn’t incredibly religious at all anyway, so after awhile we just flat-out stopped going to church anymore anyway.

However, this is where our story’s differ, as I don’t feel a depression or emptiness in knowing that my demise will lead to nothingness. I do not let such trite things phase me. Perhaps some people desire to live forever, but I don’t mind just living now… When I’m dead, I’ll be too dead to care about such things, and that’s the beauty of death.

Enjoy your life, have fun, be positive. It may be all you get, but if that’s the case you may as well take it all in and make it the best you can. There’s no reason to fear death, because once you get there you’ll be oblivious to life anyway, as well as any depression set from a misplaced sense of worth.

An afterlife is a nice crutch, it’s a nice thought. Sure I’d love to believe that when I die I can just continue to live in comfort in a magical paradise. That sounds really cool, but it’s not like I need to.

And as the song “Happy Valium Meal” by Drown Radio states:

“Hell to me is a Heaven that never ends.”"

Now I’d like to expound on this just a bit, because I feel this is an interesting subject. Not just religion in general, but the effect religion has on people - even those that aren’t particularly religious but have experienced it.

Let’s face it, a lot of people grow up with a religion in their household and they are taught this religion as a kid. As far as I’m concerned that’s what keeps religion going, because if you raised someone with absolutely no religion and one day when they were an adult attempted to introduce them to one, they would probably think you were insane. The fact that we have religious beliefs shoved into our heads so early in life is a big factor in the reason they weigh so heavily on us, and why many believe what they do.

Personally I’m an agnostic atheist - that is I’m agnostic in the fact that I acknowledge that ultimately we do not and cannot prove anything or know anything with certainty, and I leave the idea for religion open for anyone who can possibly sway me, but for now I’m leaning heavily towards atheism since it makes the most sense to me. This blog is not meant to be a religious debate either, simply a discussion on religion in general.

Now as I said in my reply, I would love to legitimately believe in Heaven, what a great concept! An amazing afterlife where I can go and be happy for an eternity? How could anyone pass an offer like that up? It’s a fantastic concept and it would be a fantastic way to go… But I can’t bring myself to take it seriously. I mean I’d also love to believe that on the other side of the world there’s a giant Mountain Dew factory giving out free Mountain Dew for life to anyone named StarF… But I just don’t believe that. Okay so that analogy doesn’t work since people can actually go to the other side of the world, confirm that it’s wrong, and come back to tell me (Or hell, I could do it myself), but what I’m getting as it just because something is a nice or comforting thought doesn’t make it true, no matter how much you want to tell yourself it is.

I think this is a major key point in many religions that hold the afterlife concept, and it is what allows for them to control people here and now. They say “Do this, and when you die you will be rewarded with this,” and to say that is really devious and to me seems a bit morally wrong to try and control people with vague promises. But these concepts even have impact on those who don’t follow the religions, as exhibited by the original post by our friend Jezuz.

For a minute let’s imagine a world where there was no religion, that we were in fact living in a Godless world… Would it be better, or would it be worse? Personally I believe that it would be a better world. A lot of religious people may disagree, saying that people would not be moral - but why do morals have to come from religion? I think people could still come up with a set of moral rules and codes of conduct without also tying a deity into it. I know that I have morals even though I don’t follow any particular religion. Morals don’t have to come from a religious context.

And so if we were able to come up with a set of positive morals without ever creating religion, where would we be as a society? I can’t honestly say I know, but if I were to take a guess I’d think we would be advanced much further, and also have much less war in general around the world. And beyond those huge effects, I think that there would be less people who feel confused and depressed due to religious pressures. Also there’s this interesting graph:



Haha okay so maybe this is just a cheap shot, and maybe it’s not entirely accurate, but I do think this does present an interesting point because there’s definitely at least something to it. Religion tends to stir people up and cause conflicts and impede progress in general… Any why? Because people are stubborn when it comes to their beliefs, and no one can actually prove they are right, so they just keep fighting over it instead.

In theory religion can be a very uplifting, positive, and helpful thing, and I’m not saying it has been all bad, or that I dislike people that follow any sort of religion. I just think that in my opinion we could all benefit from living in a Godless world… What are your thoughts?

[bombmaniac]

its not so much god as ignorance and the desire for power. the primary reason the church stopped science is because it would have destabilized the church. the church made ridiculous statements based on absolutely nothing using the bible as a source, and if they were shown to be wrong, they would lose all their power. its not god that made that void, it was a group of power hungry freaks.

[krzych32]

The picture that you have left shows how little you know about Dark ages. And since when the dark ages are "Christian". I know, I will get attacked by every Atheis, and mmost likely 3/4 of christians for this, because what I am saying goes against what is known as common knowledge, but let me state my position before you decide to kick me off the moon.

Lets start with the fact that Christianity, in no way contibuted to starting the dark ages, in fact it was in their interest to keep the Roman Empire alive. Pople Leo I, for exaple, stopped Attila the Hun from sacking rome, but of course no one is giving the church any credit for that.

And now to the bombmaniac's statement that church made "ridiculous statements based on absolutely nothing" , that is not true, many of their statements were taken from the period of antiquity. For example, Plate was the one to strongly support the idea of the geocentric universe, and that's where the idea came from, the Greeks (this just shows how the graph above is wrong). In fact, we can learn about the greek philosophies because it was the church that saved them from being lost in time, to be exact the Irish monks were the one's responsible for this.

Lets not forget about the Universities that church established over the centuries, granted, they may have not added to scientific discoveries, but at least they went after the basics, like reading and writing, and history. It was then and there that the Humanism was born, right now Humanist ideology is practiced in every school, private or public, this is why you have to take History and many Universities require you to take Philosophy, for example.

Now to close it of, did Church do a lot of evil SHIRT during that time period? Yes, of course, I would not argue about that, but what today's society is missing is the larger picture. The Church was just a reflection of the time period, if the church was not in place at that time, it would most likely be as bad as it was anyways. The church turned bad because EVERYONE was bad, it's just that the church ended up being on top so now, popular culture, not fully understanding that time period blames everything on it, and crediting all of the evil things that it done without even knowing about the few good aspects.

[stephen5000]

I'm sure the world would be very different without organized religion. I won't say "without religion" since I don't think it's possible to be without religion in its purest sense. However, I'm sure the world would still be just as screwed up and have had just as many pointless wars.

The thing is, religion, in and of itself isn't really the problem. Religion is just a notion of reality. The problem is when people try to use religion to coerce people (or even themselves) to do bad things. People tend to have the annoying habit of being easily swayed by religion. Thus people in power who have various political objective will use religion to control popular support.

In other words, religion isn't the main problem, it's just the excuse that makes the bad things seem ok. However, simply removing religion wouldn't change much. There can and have been many other ways to control people - that's what politics is all about. As long as people are susceptible to the suggestion of doing and thinking harmful things, some other excuse will arise to meet the needs of those in power.

SO what we really want is for people to stop being zombies; which is certainly much easier in today's technologically advanced world than it would have been in ancient and medieval times.

[IMAGINARYphilosophy]

When I’m dead, I’ll be too dead to care about such things, and that’s the beauty of death.

Enjoy your life, have fun, be positive. It may be all you get, but if that’s the case you may as well take it all in and make it the best you can. There’s no reason to fear death, because once you get there you’ll be oblivious to life anyway, as well as any depression set from a misplaced sense of worth.

An afterlife is a nice crutch, it’s a nice thought. Sure I’d love to believe that when I die I can just continue to live in comfort in a magical paradise. That sounds really cool, but it’s not like I need to.

^

[Nakor]

I agree a lot with what the OP said, though I have to disagree with that image. Perhaps a better question to ask would be, "What would the world be without dogma?" Certainly a large part of the damage that has been done by religion was due to dogmatic indoctrination of children. I honestly don't think that even the moderate religious can argue that point (in fact, I know that many would agree wholeheartedly).

Of course, I also believe that in the absence of dogma, there would probably also be an absence of religion. Oh, perhaps there would be some deism here and there, but very little if anything in the way of organised religion.

As for living in a godless world, where there is no eternal afterlife awaiting us, I have to say I thought quite a bit about it, and I don't think I've come up with all of my answers yet. However, that doesn't mean I should begin believing in God. Acting hopefully on a falsehood is not a good alternative to coming up with the best possible solution to the real situation.

And yet, I also find myself relatively unconcerned with the afterlife. Why? Honestly, I can't say I have a reason. It simply doesn't depress me to think about it. What it does do is encourage me to have as much of an impact in our world as I can during the time I do have. I see myself doing this in two ways: first, by doing as much good as I can, in any way that I can; second, by creating something that will outlast me. I wish to do both of these things. Perhaps a novel I write can last for centuries beyond my time. And even when all of the direct actions and proofs of my existence are lost, any positive impact I've had upon the world will last eternally. My actions will inevitably have ripples throughout all time, just as everyone else's will.

I can't say that I've thought about it much beyond that. The one other thing that they will say, however, is that I've been much happier in really grasping the truth of our natural world than I ever was deluding myself with religion. With religion I always found myself trying to explain or rationalise things, or make sense of things that just didn't seem to mesh to me. It was this that led me from Christianity to being nondenominational, because then I could accept as false those things that could not be, such as resurrections and so forth. By the time I had even heard of the concept of atheism, I was already so close to it that I realised I simply hadn't thought of that as an option. (And this is why I would support the bus campaign with signs like "It's okay not to believe" and "Don't believe? You're not alone.")

So, that's in a nutshell how I think about it, at least so far. The truth, to me, is more important than fiction, not matter how happy the fiction may make you feel. Not that I dislike fiction; I intend to eventually have some published! Fiction is fine, as long as it's advertised as such. But the truth is more important. And I intend to live my life in a way that my creations will live on as long as possible after my death, and even when I am no longer remembered, my actions will be part of the cause that led to whatever great society comes generations after ours.

[Ryan]

Taking my usual position as devils advocate:

Why do people assume that morals come from religion? Why do they not assume that religion comes from morals?

A world without dogma is not united and a world without morals is chaotic. It is impossible for a world to exist without religion, it's a sociological structure of humans to create religion. Instead of questioning how the world would be different without it, perhaps a better question to ask would be what kind of religion could unite the entire world?

By the way, in case you were wondering - that religion does not currently exist - so if you are trying to spread your religion - please don't waste your time answering my question. Though this last paragraph may seem harsh it is written with great respect for religious people and how their ideas have shaped the world. After all, had it not been for religious debate - I would have never even posed the question.

[Nakor]

I never claimed that a world without dogma is united. Certainly, there are many problems and disagreements that would still exist in world without dogma. And yet it is equally clear that dogma is responsible for a vast number of problems and prevents a vast number of disagreements from being resolved, while contributing nearly nothing beneficial. While it cannot be said that world without dogma would be perfect, I don't think it can be argued that a world without dogma would not be an improvement.

I think that no religion will ever be a universal one. At any point that you're taking faith in anything, in absence of actual known facts, there is going to be disagreement. Opinions will likely never be universal; only facts and truths likely could be. However, I think that a world where everyone is a free thinker is quite possible. This would not imply that everyone was without religion; it would merely mean that everyone was without dogma, willing to question anything, and that no one would reject what truths science did find. However, such a society is probably millennia away. This, however, does not mean that it is not worth working towards.

I would disagree that it's impossible for a world to exist without religion. We are not capable at this stage, but societies grow and change. Before we were as sentient as we are now, we had no religion. It is entirely possible that we will develop to a point where we no longer have it again, however long that may take.

[krzych32]

I feel immortal for some reason....

[IMAGINARYphilosophy]

May 1, 2010 0:54:41 GMT -5 krzych32 said:

I feel immortal for some reason....

You have inside you blood of kings?
You have no rival?
No man can be your equal?

[krzych32]

May 1, 2010 1:05:07 GMT -5 IMAGINARYphilosophy said:

May 1, 2010 0:54:41 GMT -5 krzych32 said:

I feel immortal for some reason....

You have inside you blood of kings?
You have no rival?
No man can be your equal?

yeah, something like that......

[Ryan]

If any group of people, be it a religious group, a small group of friends, or a nation, or the world, take one thing as accepted for all, then it is considered dogma - an accepted belief from which there shall be no deviation accepted in the form of ideology.

There are negative dogmas - such dogmas should be done away with - but not all dogma is negative. In fact I would argue that those of us who debate and discuss topics like this one here on the moon hold the dogma that we should all think for ourselves. That is a dogma - that should not be done away with.

The point I attempt to make is that - instead of categorizing religion or dogma as simply that, it should instead be attempted to address which parts of a religion or a dogma are negative and harmful to society as a whole.

[Nakor]

But we don't hold a dogma that we should all think for ourselves. Dan himself has said that he's okay with zombies existing. Being okay with others who disagree with you makes it quite different from dogma. I mean, I suppose under one definition of dogma you could include any opinion, but I think that's stretching the term.

Personally, I feel that in an absence of dogma, good people will still choose to do good things. So while dogma that encourages good acts may exist, I don't think it's necessary, whereas dogma that encourages bad acts can be disastrous.

[stephen5000]

So dogma (incl. dogmatic religious belief) is a major uniting force in our world. One question could be: can we come up with a system to unite all of the world?

But another question could be: do we really want to unite everyone? Is it a good thing? Is it even possible without removing vast amounts of culture?

Clearly we don't want to turn the people of the world into ants, nor do we want divisions between peoples to lead to wars. The union of people and individualism both have their pros and cons.

Thinking for yourself is an interesting piece of dogma, as it's not inherently unifying (only perhaps in opposition to those who don't think for themselves, but perhaps not even then).

If we are thinking in what ifs: What if people looked beyond their differences and were nice to each other? - This seems to be gaining actual support in the world over the course of history and perhaps as the world becomes a sort of tribe. But would even such a world be dogmatic at its core?

[FranticProdigy]

People who live in a godless world will live their lives more fully, as they will realize it is not a trial run. Where many believers would see that they have a second eternal life in heaven.

[RabbitWho]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0& (warning; innocent people being killed, you'll get my point just by reading this post, you don't have to watch the video)

Posting a direct link so you can also read the comments underneath.

This is leaked footage of a journalist and a group of other unarmed people in Baghdad being shot. One person survives and a van drives up and two people get out to try and help him. They are all shot.
The thing which they "identified" as an AK 47 was a small square black camera case. Only one person had one, an entire group of people were shot.
I had to stop watching at that point because it was too upsetting.

You can believe in god if you like, but if you tell me that is part of gods plan then god is evil and you are sick for following him.

www.wikileaks.org/