lydia
Meteor
MOTS
Posts: 58
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God...
May 18, 2010 17:48:02 GMT -5
Post by lydia on May 18, 2010 17:48:02 GMT -5
There is no god.
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God...
May 18, 2010 20:46:59 GMT -5
Post by Ryan on May 18, 2010 20:46:59 GMT -5
If it is reasonable to assume that your religion is true, then it is equally reasonable to assume all religions are true. Since multiple religions send you to 'Hell' for not following their religion, then regardless of which religion you follow, if you hold any religion to be true, you go to hell.
By the way, Atheism, Agnosticism, and Deism are all religions by definition, regardless of how they relate to the original 'religare' from which the word religion finds its root (by the way, religare means to re-bind, and has nothing to do with community or deities).
So really, a Christian God, if one exists which I would highly doubt due to its contradictory nature, might be cruel, but if one chooses to believe in it, then that is ok. If a follower of such a God chooses to see the good in said God, that's ok. If someone else sees it differently, it makes no difference in the end, for it is doubtful that a differing opinion on the nature of such an impossible to describe being, could shatter a believer's view.
If you are a Christian - you need not defend your God, it is not necessary for your faith, simply don't let your faith falter.
If you are not a Christian - then you need not argue the point, for what difference does it make if someone believes something you believe to be false that really only affects them after they die?
(EDIT: Is it bad for me to take great satisfaction in playing devil's advocate?)
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God...
May 18, 2010 21:24:24 GMT -5
Post by risingphoenix89 on May 18, 2010 21:24:24 GMT -5
... (EDIT: Is it bad for me to take great satisfaction in playing devil's advocate?) Nope. I think playing Devil's Advocate is good for you. People should do it more often, exercise that brain muscle.
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Nakor
Star
Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
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God...
May 19, 2010 0:22:00 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on May 19, 2010 0:22:00 GMT -5
If it is reasonable to assume that your religion is true, then it is equally reasonable to assume all religions are true. Since multiple religions send you to 'Hell' for not following their religion, then regardless of which religion you follow, if you hold any religion to be true, you go to hell. By the way, Atheism, Agnosticism, and Deism are all religions by definition, regardless of how they relate to the original ' religare' from which the word religion finds its root (by the way, religare means to re-bind, and has nothing to do with community or deities). If atheism is a religion, and positing any religion to be true would make it reasonable to posit all religions to be true, then it is impossible not to posit any religions true, and moreover we would be considering atheism and theism to be simultaneously true. Unless religion falls under the discretion of Schrödinger and his cat (All religions are true 'til you die and find out?), I think that contradicts itself a bit. Either way, atheism is not a religion. It is a stance on or related to religion, but it is not a religion, though there are religions that are atheistic (such as at least one form of Buddhism). Similarly, theism is not a religion in and of itself. (Deism... probably is a religion, since it actually tries to explain god to an extent.) "Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby." Atheists hear that last bit a lot. "Let us believe in what we want and leave us alone." If it were truly that alone, I would almost be happy to do so. But the problem is not just the beliefs -- it's the actions too. Many wrongs in the world are perpetrated by religion. Not all wrong, certainly. Maybe not even most. But a lot of them are. And many can be attributed ONLY to religion, such as present day anti-LGBT rights activism, the attempted obscurantism of evolutionary biology, the indoctrination of Africa not to use condoms (thus increasing the spread of AIDS), terrorist bombings, etc. So why not target those events specifically? Why argue with moderates too? Well, we do target the extremists separately too, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't consider the source. Which brings me to one of my biggest concerns with religion: the indoctrination of children, which moderates are just as guilty of as extremists. Kids are trained in their parents' religious ways from childhood that faith is a virtue greater than reason, at least as it applies to religion. It seems almost akin to brainwashing to me. Optimally children should be raised knowing nothing one way or another about religion at least 'til they're 16 -- but that, of course, is impossible in today's world as it is. (But raising them atheist is the same thing, right? Well, that's why I'd argue that raising them secular is better -- that is, neither for religion nor against, simply ignoring the matter entirely. However, when the religious proselytize to your kids, you have to respond somehow. The goal is not to indoctrinate a child against religion any more than it is to indoctrinate them into one. The goal is to teach them to use logic and reason and as they grow older let them draw their own conclusions.) Saying that atheists do not need to argue their point because we should live and let live sounds nice, but it misses the point. I don't argue against a god merely because I think I'm right and others are wrong. I argue against a god because I see all the things religion does -- how it starts wars, obscures truths, indoctrinates children, prefers to let people die rather than break religious commandment -- and I feel a world without religion is a worthy goal to aspire to. And yes, I see the good things -- but I see that they can all be done in the name of humanism; they do not require religion. If I had to choose one "think impossibly big" goal I'd like to work for personally, it would be to prevent the indoctrination of children into religious beliefs. (I call it "impossibly big" because one can't morally take away a parents' right to raise their child as they see fit within reason, and as such that cannot be the method, meaning only gradual change can likely be achieved through communication. This does not make it an unworthy goal to attempt to reduce indoctrination of children in the world by legal, moral means -- such as trying to argue one's point in open forum -- however.) Because let's face it, there are no Christian children, Muslim children, Jewish children and so forth. There are merely children of Christian, Muslim and Jewish parents, being trained in the way their parents' parents' parents' were centuries ago, and continuing the chain. End that chain and you take down all the wrongs religion causes with it, because even if those children grow to be religious themselves, they would also grow to be logical, rational people who wouldn't spout dogma like teaching creationism in schools, or the glory of blowing one's self up in the name of Allah. A person raised without religion until adulthood might conclude the existence of a god (probably a deist one), or maybe even join a church, but I doubt they could be deluded into thinking any of the extremist stances of religion were correct. That's why many atheists -- why I -- argue against a god, even though it is "just a personal belief." I have no problem with beliefs, just with the actions that are almost inseparably associated with them. (And, as an aside, this is why deists are considered freethinkers along with atheists and agnostics; deists do not spout dogma, do not train their children to have 'faith' and so forth. That sort of religion, which does not cloud one's judgment, is not necessarily objectionable, and is the kind of religion a child might eventually choose to take if raised secularly and then later decided to take on a religion.)
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God...
May 19, 2010 2:35:12 GMT -5
Post by Ryan on May 19, 2010 2:35:12 GMT -5
Atheism is a religion - without worship. Please note that religion does not require worship.
I agree with you that the indoctrination of children is disgustingly terrible, for it leads to lack of rationale and logic, two of my favorite personality traits in people.
My analogy was intended as a Schroedinger's cat sort of analogy, if you dare to accept one religion, then you must accept that any and all religions hold truth. You must assume that the cat is both alive and dead at the same time.
My last two paragraphs were actually not an attack on Athiests but more of a warning for Christians to not pester the rational people who have come to the conclusion that there is no god.
Arguing against god is one thing, but you must argue in such a way, not to simply bash faith, and here's why. If you were to argue to a religious person that their god is false, and that person were to lose faith and then become Atheist like yourself, would it be any better than indoctrination? You simply put the idea in their head and argued it until they chose to agree with you. If you choose to argue against a god, then argue rationally, don't argue for the sake of abolishing religion, but for the sake of spreading rational thought, so that future generations are not indoctrinated with basic faith, but instead a logical belief system.
I personally am a deist; I used to be Catholic, then I was Atheist, now I'm Deist. Nobody told me I was wrong when I believed in the Christian God, I just stopped believing in him because I thought he was irrational. Nobody argued back to me saying that there was a god, but I still came to the rationale that there was one, maybe more.
If you don't like what religion, and more specifically blind faith has done to this world, try to open religious peoples minds to rational arguments and ideas, not necessarily argue that their god is false. Rational people don't indoctrinate ideas in their children (at least regarding belief systems), so don't simply try to spread your ideas, spread the way you got to those ideas.
Back on topic of God (the Christian one).
If there is a God and it is the Christian God, then the bible should not be taken so literally. 1. It's not a history book. Yes it has events in history, no they are not 100% accurate. 2. It contradicts itself. Don't take it literally word for word, and the contradictions only come to a few minor discrepancies including a. God is not actually perfect. b. God is not omnipotent. c. God is cruel. Christians hold that Jesus is the savior, sent by God to forgive the sins of mankind. If this is true, then by believing Jesus is the savior, God's cruelty will pass over you similar to the parable of Passover. Instead of being sent to Hell, you go to Heaven. Please note, that by not believing in Jesus, you do go to Hell. Every description of Hell is violent and fire and brimstone. However, the punishment for not believing in Jesus is just called eternal damnation. It is quite possible that Hell is not all fire and brimstone. Please read Dante's inferno - it's a good book and it is not contradicted by the bible (last I checked, I read it years ago and might have forgotten some).
Also note, Nowhere in the Christian religion, do you need to spread religion. Nowhere in the Christian religion, do you need to have large families. Nowhere in the Christian religion, does it require that you WORSHIP Jesus (believe in him yes, worship him no). All of these aspects of Christianity are actually part of Judaism. If you truly believe in Jesus, then there are only 2 rules as a Christian - Love God and keep holy the sabbath, Love your neighbor as thyself. So - don't spread silly ideas, don't have a closed mind, and PDBAZ.
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God...
May 19, 2010 11:33:12 GMT -5
Post by Trey on May 19, 2010 11:33:12 GMT -5
Atheism is a religion - without worship. Please note that religion does not require worship. Okay, does that mean NOT collecting stamps is a hobby? Is NOT smoking considered a habit? From Wiki: Religion is the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship[1], usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
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God...
May 19, 2010 13:11:04 GMT -5
Post by Ryan on May 19, 2010 13:11:04 GMT -5
from definition a religion is a set of beliefs centered around the cause, nature or purpose of the universe, including any set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects.
I'm fairly certain atheism qualifies the definition. Perhaps by this definition agnosticism could be less considered, but all atheists hold to the belief that there is no god. Instead of comparing to not collecting stamps as a hobby, think of it like - not collecting stamps, is more worth while of your time than collecting stamps. In the end, it really wont matter. If you do it, you think it's dumb, if you don't do it, you're no different than if you do.
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God...
May 19, 2010 13:51:03 GMT -5
Post by Trey on May 19, 2010 13:51:03 GMT -5
I think you need to think of atheism in a different way.
There are some atheistic religions that fall into that category, definitely (Such as Buddhism). However, my atheism does not fall into that category. My disbelief in god(s) is not centered around the cause, nature or purpose of the universe. I also don't practice my disbelief.
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God...
May 19, 2010 15:34:50 GMT -5
Post by Ryan on May 19, 2010 15:34:50 GMT -5
In that sense, most deists are equally not religious - my point in calling atheism a religion is because it is most certainly a religious view, it was also to prevent atheists and other people who consider their ideology regarding religious views as "not religious", from shoving "religion" and "religious people" into a category to which they themselves share nearly equal terms with.
Just because you don't believe in a god, and therefore don't worship one, don't consider the fact that atheism is so much different than theism. Both have negative aspects such as indoctrination, arrogance, and ignorance. Calling atheism a religion is more so that, atheists simply don't bash on religion, which even in a world where there is no indoctrination of children, no ignorant beliefs, and no blind faith, there will still be religion.
(if you argue against this, see metoyou's post about religion being a social construct - true and even with rational people in a rational world, there will be such constructs, though perhaps not developed in the same manner that most modern day religions came about)
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God...
May 19, 2010 15:44:18 GMT -5
Post by Lex on May 19, 2010 15:44:18 GMT -5
Atheism is a view ON religion or a religious viewpoint, but it is not a religion itself.
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God...
May 19, 2010 16:03:44 GMT -5
Post by Trey on May 19, 2010 16:03:44 GMT -5
Atheism is a view ON religion or a religious viewpoint, but it is not a religion itself. beat me to it xD
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God...
May 19, 2010 16:25:30 GMT -5
Post by Ryan on May 19, 2010 16:25:30 GMT -5
I secede from my argument, you have successfully convinced me, however my reasoning for calling it a religion, and while henceforth I shall call it a religious viewpoint, is stated above.
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Nakor
Star
Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
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God...
May 19, 2010 16:38:10 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on May 19, 2010 16:38:10 GMT -5
I beat both of you to it in my last post. Atheism is not a religion. Just like theism is not a religion. Mirriam-Webster (since I don't trust wiki) defines religion as: 1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith Definition 2 calls back on definition one (with the adjective religious) mind you -- it's merely the application of definition 1. Definition 2 may seem like it includes atheism as it mentions a set of beliefs -- but note it mentions a set of RELIGIOUS beliefs. I believe the sun will rise tomorrow, but that is not a religious belief, and therefore has nothing to do with religion. I lack the belief of a god, but that is not a religion; it is the absence of religious belief. Interestingly M-W lists the adjective "religionless" as a word immediately after these definitions, so clearly being without religion is considered possible by definition. Being without religion can only be the absence of religious beliefs, and therefore agnostic atheism (the lack of belief in a god, but admitting that this is not a 100% certainty) in the absence of any other supernatural belief (such as Buddhism) is religionless. (Sadly, they don't offer a detailed definition for the word; they merely list it as a word under the entry for "religion.") Whether gnostic atheism (being certain there is no god -- period) is a religion is up for debate, but very, very few atheists take that stance. For the record, I agree with you on the appropriate method of debating religion; it should absolutely be done from a purely rational and fair standpoint, and not devolve to mudslinging or mindless bashing. You will likely never convince someone of anything if you're not treating them with respect.
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God...
May 19, 2010 19:28:49 GMT -5
Post by KipEnyan on May 19, 2010 19:28:49 GMT -5
Ah, discussion of this nature restores my faith in mankind.
I think maybe one day, telling parents they can't shove religion down their kids throats will be akin to it being illegal to train your kids to be mass murderers. And I know it's a bit of a stretch, and by-and-large religious people aren't genocidists, but the kind of damage teaching that kind of thinking can do I truly think is comparable.
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God...
May 19, 2010 20:38:37 GMT -5
Post by Ryan on May 19, 2010 20:38:37 GMT -5
butterfly effect in a sorts if you think of it...
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FranticProdigy
Planet
[AWD:1c]
Im classy because I use words like touch
Posts: 312
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God...
May 29, 2010 13:15:45 GMT -5
Post by FranticProdigy on May 29, 2010 13:15:45 GMT -5
It should be that simple for everybody, but common sense isn't so common.
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God...
May 29, 2010 13:39:50 GMT -5
Post by Lex on May 29, 2010 13:39:50 GMT -5
It should be that simple for everybody, but common sense isn't so common. How utterly close-minded.
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Nakor
Star
Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
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God...
May 29, 2010 17:32:57 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on May 29, 2010 17:32:57 GMT -5
I think it's more along the lines that when you're raised with it so long, it's hard to see through/live without it any more to be honest. It's almost like a dependency for some people. Others don't care enough to change or don't think it's important and continue to go on indoctrinating their kids or letting them be indoctrinated and continuing the chain.
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God...
May 29, 2010 18:52:03 GMT -5
Post by Joey on May 29, 2010 18:52:03 GMT -5
Here is a quick rundown of my beliefs:
1)There is a God, basically he is the Christian God. I have some dissagreements though
2) I belive that heaven and hell exist. Heaven is for those who have believed in God, and want to know him. You dont have to be a part of any faith, but it dosent hurt, as long as you believe in him, you have a chance at Heaven. The only way someone can ruin their chance of heaven is if they do something terrible in their life, and dont apologize and ask for forgiveness. They will be sent to hell and will suffer. Hell in my beliefe isnt a place of hurting, you are just seperated from God forever. For people who believe in God it will be the utmost saddness and hurt, but for those of you who dont believe in god, you will be fine and contempt, just upset that you were wrong(I know, just my thoughts)
3) God is perfect. He created everything perfect, but he wanted these perfect things to freely love him, so he gave the first man(whatever the heck evolvution started with) free will. Sometime man(whereever on the line of evolution) sinned, because of free will. Because of this, God had to create a place where those who chose not to be with him(those who sin and dont make up for it) go.
So there is a quick rundown, please dont bash me because I have a very open mind and am open to discussion(civilized)
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Nakor
Star
Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
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God...
May 29, 2010 19:07:54 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on May 29, 2010 19:07:54 GMT -5
So, believers get to be with god forever, atheists get to live forever without god, and the pedopope gets stuck with the atheists thanks to his sins?
...I could get behind that theory, if believing it didn't trash my chances at trashing the pope in hell later. XD
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