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May 30, 2010 22:02:28 GMT -5
Post by Lyserg Zeroz on May 30, 2010 22:02:28 GMT -5
NakorI think this is not necessarily true because reincarnation, even if you get nothing from your previous life, you still get to be. With this I mean instead of going to absolute nothing and simply dissapear you get to exist again and preserve some sort of conciousness. Also, it should be pointed out that religions that use reincarnation or rebirth give it some meaning. I don't remember exactly how it works (as I read about this a long time ago) but in buhdism and hinduism rebirth is part of an important cycle, and I think it also has to do with achieving enlightment and getting to Nirvana and hindu version of Nirvana (according to wikipedia: Moksha). I won't do any claims on what exactly rebirth has to do with Nirvana or Moksha and how the cycle works, because I really don't remember enough to be sure that I wouldn't mess everything up and start caliming stuff that is actually not true.
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Nakor
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May 30, 2010 22:19:56 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on May 30, 2010 22:19:56 GMT -5
Here's the thing, I don't have any consciousness from a former self. If there is an ultimate goal then it would be fine (or at least a regular interim in between where you retain your entire self), but if reincarnation is all there is then it's meaningless. Any former self's modification to the current me is either undetectable or minuscule enough as to be effectively meaningless; I am no longer that person, I'm 100% the new me. That other person that I was supposedly reincarnated from is just as dead and gone.
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May 30, 2010 22:23:59 GMT -5
Post by Joey on May 30, 2010 22:23:59 GMT -5
Here's the thing, I don't have any consciousness from a former self. If there is an ultimate goal then it would be fine (or at least a regular interim in between where you retain your entire self), but if reincarnation is all there is then it's meaningless. Any former self's modification to the current me is either undetectable or minuscule enough as to be effectively meaningless; I am no longer that person, I'm 100% the new me. That other person that I was supposedly reincarnated from is just as dead and gone. THOUGHT EXPERIMENT:What if people know about this, but "god" dosent let them say it. So there is a point, and people know about it in their reincarnated lives. We dont because we are in our first cycle.
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May 30, 2010 22:48:28 GMT -5
Post by Lyserg Zeroz on May 30, 2010 22:48:28 GMT -5
NakorThe meaning would be on rebirth is rebirth itself, on having a mind, even if an erased one, after being dead, and then living to use it again, instead of never using it. But I get what you're saying, even if that was the meaning it would still be meaningless because one wouldn't be able to appreciate its meaning...hmm...never mind. {But I still prefer rebirth instead of nothingness } @picnic I heard that before 0o0. That would kind of cool, but it would pretty dmn scary to have the power to piss god off by saying anything about reincarnation, I think I would rather not live with that unless there was an awesome, really awesome, reward. Or maybe wouldn't be that good, I mean, if you remember your past life you also remember everything that you lost by dying.
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Nakor
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May 30, 2010 23:47:34 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on May 30, 2010 23:47:34 GMT -5
Lyserg Zeroz: Exactly that. So, to me, it no longer bothers me whether I'll ever be reborn. @picnic: Omniscient conspiracy theory? That would be quite the stretch! Why would God not allow first-timers to know, but allow every other sort to?
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May 31, 2010 0:15:25 GMT -5
Post by Joey on May 31, 2010 0:15:25 GMT -5
Lyserg Zeroz: Exactly that. So, to me, it no longer bothers me whether I'll ever be reborn. @picnic: Omniscient conspiracy theory? That would be quite the stretch! Why would God not allow first-timers to know, but allow every other sort to? because I think it the Buddhist belief that it's a wheel, that you reincarnated every time unless you live a life that was great enough to get you off into nirvahna. If that were true, then this god would really want to screw with US and it could be that you are punished if you tell and the telling is wiped away. This god in this sense is a evil one that likes picking on the n00bs.
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Nakor
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May 31, 2010 0:20:34 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on May 31, 2010 0:20:34 GMT -5
So the reason that God allows everyone but the first-lifers to know is because he's hazing the n00bs? That just... doesn't seem terribly likely to me, even from a religious standpoint. But apparently some people would have to be able to present the theory -- you just did. (Or are you a fellow first-lifer and they can? Or am I not, and can't tell you? Or would saying that we reincarnate and every instance after the first knows it prove you are a first-lifer making it possible to reveal the conspiracy if it were true by showing many people were incapable of saying it?)
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May 31, 2010 1:08:39 GMT -5
Post by krzych32 on May 31, 2010 1:08:39 GMT -5
I only know that I don't know anything, but that's still more then most people.
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May 31, 2010 9:58:48 GMT -5
Post by Joey on May 31, 2010 9:58:48 GMT -5
So the reason that God allows everyone but the first-lifers to know is because he's hazing the n00bs? That just... doesn't seem terribly likely to me, even from a religious standpoint. But apparently some people would have to be able to present the theory -- you just did. (Or are you a fellow first-lifer and they can? Or am I not, and can't tell you? Or would saying that we reincarnate and every instance after the first knows it prove you are a first-lifer making it possible to reveal the conspiracy if it were true by showing many people were incapable of saying it?) But to present the theroy, you have to be a first-lifer, because otherwise I would be killed according to this because I would know it to be true.
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Nakor
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May 31, 2010 10:18:23 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on May 31, 2010 10:18:23 GMT -5
Which means we can test the theory's accuracy by determining how many people are capable of safely presenting the theory. Everyone else would either refuse (more likely) or die instead of simply stating the theory.
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May 31, 2010 11:17:18 GMT -5
Post by Joey on May 31, 2010 11:17:18 GMT -5
Which means we can test the theory's accuracy by determining how many people are capable of safely presenting the theory. Everyone else would either refuse (more likely) or die instead of simply stating the theory. But the all powerful god could wipe everyones mind and make everyone think that the person that died was killed in an accident and never said anything
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Nakor
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May 31, 2010 12:10:31 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on May 31, 2010 12:10:31 GMT -5
Still, if it's untrue then we could prove that much with certainty, since that outcome would not occur. Theoretically it would be impossible to conclude truth, but quite possible to conclude falsehood, an ironic situation.
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metoyou
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A dream we dream alone is merely a dream, but a dream we dream together can become reality.
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May 31, 2010 14:11:22 GMT -5
Post by metoyou on May 31, 2010 14:11:22 GMT -5
All of this conspiracy theory gets me thinking: how religious of you! haha. I suppose this is my rub with religion: Groups (or individuals) take small bits of truth (such as existing or having feelings) and fill in the gaps in such a way that it is entertaining and/or desirable. You prefer reincarnation because heaven sounds boring. I have heard the argument that people are religious because the idea of ceasing to exist is just too sad. I understand and can appreciate these reasons, but I get tired of people saying that religion is truth because ultimately there is no way of knowing. I don't believe in God because there is not enough evidence for me to do so. It seems much more likely that S/He is a creation of human imagination than a real and all powerful entity. Religion is about validation. It gives a purpose for why you are here and/or what you should be doing, and perhaps what will happen to you (it answers other questions too, but these are some of the basics). It provides answers where as of yet none have been found. I challenge many of my religious friends to answer the question "Why do you believe?" I enjoy Nietzche and one of his big points is that all human decisions are made with self-interst in mind. Perhaps not physical wealth, but mental satisfaction. So if you are religious, ask yourself why, and be honest.
I am pretty sure you three were somewhat goofing off, but I found what you were saying as a useful jumping-off point. How easy it is to create a religious belief or doctrine!
Also, a couple interesting pieces of food for thought:
Schizophrenics often think they partake in direct conversation with God. I am not saying most do, but there is a strong correlation. Perhaps Jesus should have seen a psychologist...
Also, something a friend of mine pointed out: If jesus died and rose again, then 33% of the world is praying to an undead figure.
Above all else remember: Being non-religious is a privilege, not everyone can afford to be so.
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Nakor
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May 31, 2010 15:25:15 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on May 31, 2010 15:25:15 GMT -5
^ Regarding your last sentence, I've come to wonder if the people who "can't live without religion" would have been able to had they been raised completely without it. Is it possibly more of a built-up dependency than simply a base need that existed all along? Hard to test without a large sample group of raised non-theists (which there simply aren't that many of to begin with -- most nontheists now were raised in religious families and later deconverted) to compare numbers against, but it's interesting.
Also, regarding the rest of your post (which I agree with for the record), it reminds me of this quote from Wizard's First Rule (in fact, this is the rule the book is named for):
"People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People’s heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."
Me, I don't think it makes them stupid. But if you strip the insults from the quote, the remainder makes sense; people tend to believe things if they really want them to be true (An abused wife who remains convinced her husband still loves her, or a gambler who is convinced his last dollar will win the jackpot.) or are scared they might be (Nearly all superstition, or guy who is convinced the girl he loves will reject him, so can't bring himself to ask her out.).
Religion does appear to be a combination of desires (things people believe are true because they wish them to be true) and threats (things people believe are true because they are scared they may be true). Another great example of something that abuses that rule is commercials. (Product xyz will make you sexy, or without product zyx you might be killed by a home invader.)
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May 31, 2010 16:34:33 GMT -5
Post by Joey on May 31, 2010 16:34:33 GMT -5
All of this conspiracy theory gets me thinking: how religious of you! haha. I suppose this is my rub with religion: Groups (or individuals) take small bits of truth (such as existing or having feelings) and fill in the gaps in such a way that it is entertaining and/or desirable. You prefer reincarnation because heaven sounds boring. I have heard the argument that people are religious because the idea of ceasing to exist is just too sad. I understand and can appreciate these reasons, but I get tired of people saying that religion is truth because ultimately there is no way of knowing. I don't believe in God because there is not enough evidence for me to do so. It seems much more likely that S/He is a creation of human imagination than a real and all powerful entity. Religion is about validation. It gives a purpose for why you are here and/or what you should be doing, and perhaps what will happen to you (it answers other questions too, but these are some of the basics). It provides answers where as of yet none have been found. I challenge many of my religious friends to answer the question "Why do you believe?" I enjoy Nietzche and one of his big points is that all human decisions are made with self-interst in mind. Perhaps not physical wealth, but mental satisfaction. So if you are religious, ask yourself why, and be honest. I am pretty sure you three were somewhat goofing off, but I found what you were saying as a useful jumping-off point. How easy it is to create a religious belief or doctrine! Also, a couple interesting pieces of food for thought: Schizophrenics often think they partake in direct conversation with God. I am not saying most do, but there is a strong correlation. Perhaps Jesus should have seen a psychologist... Also, something a friend of mine pointed out: If jesus died and rose again, then 33% of the world is praying to an undead figure. Above all else remember: Being non-religious is a privilege, not everyone can afford to be so. Okay I see this. I grew up allowed to choose my beliefs. I can afford to be non-religious, and I choose not to. Why do I believe what I do? Because it makes sense to me. What started the big bang? I don't know. And for me the logical choice is "God". No I am not just filling in the gaps. If its proven that something else started the big bang, then I will choose not to believe in God, unless I'm dead and by then I will know the answer(or not know anything). But let me ask you this. If someone believes in religion, and has a belief for something greater, does that make them an idoit, or someone who has hope? What I'm saying is that people sometimes choose to believe these things because they feel its right. And sometimes you have to go with your heart, and not with your brain.
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Nakor
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May 31, 2010 17:43:38 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on May 31, 2010 17:43:38 GMT -5
These are not to be mixed up. Hope should not equate to belief. I can hope to win the jackpot on a slot machine, but I should not believe I will even if it 'feels right,' because that would result in a gambling addition. Similarly, I can hope to live on after death, but I should not believe I will even if it 'feels right,' because that will alter decisions I make in life that would be better made based on true premises.
Hope is fine, but belief should be founded in reality.
Note that I don't think they're idiots either. Rather, I think they were indoctrinated (brain washed, effectively) in their youth while their minds were still malleable, and that such well-implanted thoughts are difficult to overcome even for an intelligent person no matter how irrational they may be. In other words, they're not idiots, but they have been deceived by people who didn't think they were deceiving them (perhaps the most effective kind of deception, unfortunately).
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May 31, 2010 19:23:23 GMT -5
Post by Joey on May 31, 2010 19:23:23 GMT -5
These are not to be mixed up. Hope should not equate to belief. I can hope to win the jackpot on a slot machine, but I should not believe I will even if it 'feels right,' because that would result in a gambling addition. Similarly, I can hope to live on after death, but I should not believe I will even if it 'feels right,' because that will alter decisions I make in life that would be better made based on true premises. Hope is fine, but belief should be founded in reality. Note that I don't think they're idiots either. Rather, I think they were indoctrinated (brain washed, effectively) in their youth while their minds were still malleable, and that such well-implanted thoughts are difficult to overcome even for an intelligent person no matter how irrational they may be. In other words, they're not idiots, but they have been deceived by people who didn't think they were deceiving them (perhaps the most effective kind of deception, unfortunately). Belief should be founded in reality, and right now reality says that there is nothing against a God. It might go against the majority of the reality, but its not opposed to it. Believeing gravity dosent exist does. Believing God exists dosent. What I was saying with hope is that sometimes people get the word mixed up. The word hope should replace beliefe in some instances. People who "believe" creationism really mean they "Hope" in creationsism. They hope because they dont want to feel as if the thing they were brainwashed to "believe" all their life isnt true. Thats why no tolerance happens. People dont listen just because they hope that you are wrong, even though you aren't. So what I was saying is that they are not idiots, they just have hope in dispair.
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metoyou
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God...
May 31, 2010 20:40:36 GMT -5
Post by metoyou on May 31, 2010 20:40:36 GMT -5
@picnic So you are saying that <not having any reasonable proof that God doesn't exist means S/He could while not having any proof that S/He does exist doesn't mean S/He can't> makes sense? This is why arguing over religion often gets no where. You are employing two different standards. God is an idea, we can't make a stronger claim than that. With your reasoning I could make the same argument that a flying purple dragon breathed fire and created the big bang, the only difference would be in the number of people who believed it. But if that is how you validate a religion then you are giving in to the qualification that religion is a social construct; in other words a religion becomes more believable not by the merit of it's content but by the number of people proclaiming it. Honestly, I think you give many believers too much credit when you distinguish between believing and hoping. Until about the time I was 19 I believed in God. I bought into the whole bible. I didn't believe it for fear that I was wrong, I believed it because I honestly thought it was true. Now I am sure there are many cases where the scenario you described applies, but I would venture to say that many more truly believe in creationism because they honestly think that is the way it happened. And on your first point, nature actually does go against God. If God exists outside of space and time, and the laws of physics don't apply to Him/Her, then God does in fact go against all of nature. If you disagree with this let me know and I would be happy to go into further detail. But to sum up the idea of God, S/He does go against all perceivable reality and perhaps this is reasonable proof that God does not exist.
However, I do not think all religious people are idiots. Many intelligent people have been lead to believe more ridiculous things then what is in some religions. I think belief has two requirements in a person: A lack of understanding and/or a lack of internal validation. This ties in well with something Nakor said: "Regarding your last sentence, I've come to wonder if the people who "can't live without religion" would have been able to had they been raised completely without it"
Consider Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. Needs have an order to them. The first needs that have to be attended to are those of physical survival, then it moves into emotional, and finally more of the existential. Most people do not reach the final stages in maslow's pyramid. The majority of people are more focused on making sure their physical and emotional needs are taken care of. So yes, even people who have not been raised religious, even though they may be more inclined to be non-religious can still become so, and are actually more likely to be non-religious because of the correlation between economic standing and religion. So this argument covers my point on lack of understanding, people just don't have the time and/or energy to devote to truly considering these questions and their beliefs, so they just accept religion (they are not idiots, they are just ill-informed). After all, it does provide an answer and a support group. I.e. religion is just as much a social construction (if not more) as it is an individual pursuit (See Durkheim's theories of how religion is created). The other side of the coin is internal validation. This is why I think the social aspect is so important. Religion gives meaning to suffering and struggle, as well as happiness. It gives the individual and the group a sense of worth and direction which is very important to mental health. It would make sense why religion has such an appeal and why people would be so ready to defend what they believe. Since people validate themselves through religion, any contradiction to it is seen as a personal attack. It is much more difficult to find purpose and meaning without the use of religion, so the people who can are in an unique position. This is why I think being atheist is a privilege not everyone can afford.
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May 31, 2010 21:00:22 GMT -5
Post by redkneehighsocks on May 31, 2010 21:00:22 GMT -5
im sick of religion. i give up
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Nakor
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God...
May 31, 2010 21:40:42 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on May 31, 2010 21:40:42 GMT -5
Wait, what? Reality says nothing against a god but a god goes against the majority of reality but isn't opposed to it? o.o
Anyway. Assuming you meant that believing a god doesn't go against reality or vice versa... any effect a god would supposedly have on reality would be measurable. As we have not measured it, we can presume that even if there were a god, he has not acted or cannot act on our world. So at the very least we can rule out an omnipotent, omnibenevolent one, along with any god it's claimed acts on the world.
Furthermore, there being no evidence against an inactive (such as deist) god does not warrant accepting the positive hypothesis (god exists) as truth (Occam's Razor). If it is a decision that may impact your life, then it would be best to make the decision as well as possible. Absolutely nothing points to the presence of a god, therefore it is far wiser to conclude no god. One should not make decisions that rely on the fact that there is a god out there, or an afterlife to go to.
On the contrary, I don't think they're being mixed up by the believers of creationism at all. They honestly do believe. Their desire to be right is the reason they believe, but it doesn't alter the fact that it has led to their belief, because they do not realize that desire is a motivating factor. They both wish and believe it to be true. Hope actually can become belief in the mind of someone not critically thinking.
Of course, I don't mean to say that hopes/fears are the only reason people turn to or stick with religion, but religion is clearly built on a lot of them which clearly has an effect on followers (such as those who say they can no longer live without it).
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