Is it fair to allow market to dictate worth?

[ibeckie]

Hey Guys,

I had a big debate with my friends at college yesterday about this and I wanted to open it up to the pogo tribe to see if we would get some more eclectic answers and a little more open mindedness?

I don't know how it is abroad but in the UK many people complain about the vast amounts of money bankers are paid and also banker bonuses.
I argued that this was fine because the free-market decides that a banker is worth 'x' and pays him accordingly. But another friend argued that a banker works as hard as a skilled builder yet is paid far, far more and that, that is not fair and the government should regulate.

The debate expanded to weather or not the market should be able to decide to pay a cleaner who works 60 hour weeks minimum wage but a reality TV star millions from promotionals.

How are we feeling about this? I certainly think free markets are good and part of a free market is to allow the market to decide what worth is to them!

[chuckleslord]

First off, the UK is anything but free-market. A skilled builder is already given subsidized support through welfare and tax breaks.

Now that that's over, the reason why the market decides that bankers should get paid more is that, first off, they deal with our money and therefore we should pay them nicely so they don't go getting the ideas of stealing our money. And second, a skilled builder is a profession that has a lot of instability and fluctuation. over one year of economic upturn, the builder could make way more than the banker, because the banker has a set income and the builder has a fluctuating income.

Lastly, the reason why UKers complain about that instead of seeing why it is, is because Europe is still economically based off of a set economic ladder, meaning if you were born poor, you'll more than likely stay poor, so the only solution people can think of is to even the outcome at their rung.

over here in America, our traditions are based in entrepreneurship and individual perseverance, so our laws (until lately) are traditionally "get the hell out of this guy's way, he's making science" or something like that. and due to that, less than 50% of our current standing below poverty line residents are still below poverty line ten years later.

[RabbitWho]

If bankers were doing a good job they'd absolutely deserve a good salary.. but as they drove us into recession and fecked over the entire world they don't deserve high salaries.

Anyway if you generate funds/a large amount of resources/energy etc. you are doing a great service for the world and deserve compensation for that. If someone made a load of money but was only paid minimum wage that would be stealing from them anad completely immoral.
Not to mention the major problems it would cause to the psychology of everyone through undervaluing them and the damage it would do to the whole economy by demotivating everyone.

I know it's essential to have cleaning staff, but it doesn't generate any money. Now if a cleaner invented some way to harness energy through sweeping and sold that money to the electricity supply board s/he would absolutely be entitled to the extra money/energy that made.
Money = representative of energy you have generated (in the form of resources or electricity or a clean room or bread or a computer program). Getting more out than your work created would work if we had magically infinite amount of resources, but we don't. (yet!)

[stephen5000]

You also have to remember that what people get paid for various jobs depends on what we as consumers are willing to pay them (either directly or indirectly). If you think reality tv stars are paid too much - don't watch reality tv. If you think maids are paid to little, hire a maid and pay her more. etc etc

[rialvestro]

Well, in the U.S. legally there is a minimum wage which everyone has to be paid that or higher. Companies however can decided on their own how much to pay people however they also have to keep in mind that they are not allowed to pay anyone differently for the same amount of work based on age, sex, race, or religion.

What this means is that if a 21 year old white man and a 40 year old black woman have both been working the same job from 3 years they have to both be getting paid the same amount of money. Now obviously they can pay more to someone who has been working 3 years as apposed to 3 months and they can pay more based on position.

Even with all the laws though people still manage to find legal loop holes. There's a way around the minimum wage for example that you can claim them as interns. Meaning they're getting on the job training so it's like school, you don't have to pay them money if they're learning something.

[RabbitWho]

At home in Ireland everyone has to be payed for training once they are hired. You can train them without paying them before they're hired.
The only way you can legally pay someone less is if they're under 16 in which case they only earn 75% of minimum wage and can't work as many hours. (This number should be raised to 18 because a lot of kids still leave school as soon as they're old enough to work full time, and I admit that academia isn't for everyone but we have the LCA now for less academic people. I think if you have a kid while still in secondary school you can get paid for going to school, not sure. )
I'm not sure if this has changed but you can also pay someone less if they are foreign workers for a foreign company brought over to do one specific job.. for example some Turkish people built the road round the back of our estate.. my mom was delighted to have someone to practice Turkish with!

[Deleted]

They'll laugh as they watch us fall
The lucky don't care at all
No chance for fate, it's unnatural selection
I want the truth

I'm hungry for some unrest
I want to push this beyond a peaceful protest
I wanna speak in a language that they'll understand

Dedication to a new age
Is this the end of destruction and rampage?
Another chance to erase then repeat it again

Counter balance this commotion
We're not droplets in the ocean, ocean

They'll laugh as they watch us fall
The lucky don't care at all
No chance for fate, it's unnatural selection
I want the truth

No religion or mind virus
Is there a hope that the facts will ever find us?
Just make sure that your are looking out for number one

I'm hungry for an unrest
Let's push this beyond a peaceful protest
I wanna speak in a language that you will understand

Counter balance this commotion
We're not droplets in the ocean, ocean

They'll laugh as they watch us crawl
The lucky don't share at all
No hope for fate, it's a random chance selection
I want the truth

Try to ride out the storm
Whilst they'll make you believe
That they are the special ones
We have not been chosen

Injustice is the norm
You won't be the first
And you know you won't be the last

Counter balance this commotion
We're not droplets in the ocean, ocean
Ocean, ocean

They'll laugh as they watch us fall
And the lucky, they don't care at all
No chance for fate, it's unnatural selection
I want the truth, I want the truth
I want the truth, I want the truth

Muse - Unnatural Selection - The Resistance (2009)

That is what I think about the market dictating worth.

EDIT: Maybe it is a good idea to add why I think as said:

It just doesn't make sense to leave such thing in the hands of the market. Deciding costs, values and salaries based on what the public itself speculates on? It is unfair. The salary of a person should be based on the amount of effort they need to dedicate to a work.

These market concepts allow people to get rich without giving anything valuable to the society. What do those people at Wall Street do which is good for us all? Nothing! A bus driver helps people to get to places, a police officer keeps our streets safe, a person from Wall Street only gains more and more money. And why should a banker receive more money than a doctor? Bankers manage a place to keep your money safe, but doctors save lives. What makes money more important than lives? A celebrity makes movies, a police officer keeps you safe. Which is more important? Your entertainment, or your security? Which one does more hard work? The celebrity, who probably is acting in movies, or the police officer, who has to face life threatening situations on a daily basis?

This is why I think as above said.