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Torture
May 31, 2010 14:19:54 GMT -5
Post by threecheers4me on May 31, 2010 14:19:54 GMT -5
Torture, effective but wrong. Even though you agree that it's wrong, which is a good thing, it's actually not even effective. It has been hard proven on numerous occasions that under the intense mental duress of torture, people often give false informa, tion in utterly convincing forms, just to get the torture to stop. It's where "Iraq has WMD's" came from. That is not where the iraq has WMDs thing came from, that came from Karl rove.
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The Doctor
Moon
I wear my sunglasses at night
Posts: 147
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Torture
May 31, 2010 19:07:15 GMT -5
Post by The Doctor on May 31, 2010 19:07:15 GMT -5
If torturing one person could save thousands, is it necessary then? Is it okay then? I find this a strange way of putting it, I just have to ask for lack of better English skills, arent could and will totally different words? Could meaning that it might and will that it occurs? Anyhow, why is there allways a difference between one person and ten, and ten people and tenthousand? If it WILL save one person, then do it. There are so many ways of torture that are non-invasive and hardly hurts the person. The thing with torture is that the things that dont hurt are the most effective, and most likely to give correct intel. While those that hurt most likely trigger survival insticts. Not that Im like a proffessional torturer or anything...
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Torture
Jun 3, 2010 15:17:32 GMT -5
Post by KipEnyan on Jun 3, 2010 15:17:32 GMT -5
Even though you agree that it's wrong, which is a good thing, it's actually not even effective. It has been hard proven on numerous occasions that under the intense mental duress of torture, people often give false informa, tion in utterly convincing forms, just to get the torture to stop. It's where "Iraq has WMD's" came from. That is not where the iraq has WMDs thing came from, that came from Karl rove. Our primary lead on the belief that Iraq had WMD's came from an Iraqi National Congress report. It was based on intel gleaned from a captured Taliban agent who was sent to Egypt to be "processed" (he ended up being brutally tortured for days), during which time the information came out that they definitely had WMD's and he had a rough idea of where they were being kept. The eager beaver CIA leapt into action over this report, and started covert deployments shortly thereafter.
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Torture
Jun 3, 2010 15:52:49 GMT -5
Post by jeradjones on Jun 3, 2010 15:52:49 GMT -5
I actually use to think water-boarding was a sport, then I found out what it actually was. It sounds horrible. The Chinese use to torture their P.O.W. in an interesting way (This was a long time ago. I'm not sure the date, but it around the time China was the most technologically advance country in the world.). They would blindfold the person and sit them in an empty room. Once every hour a droplet of water would fall on their head. The P.O.W. would go crazy after a couple of days waiting for the next drop of water to come.
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Torture
Jun 3, 2010 16:33:36 GMT -5
Post by KipEnyan on Jun 3, 2010 16:33:36 GMT -5
"Chinese water torture" is actually just a name given to that form of torture based on stereotypes of Western society. There is actually no evidence (that I've found, at least) of the technique of torture commonly referred to as "Chinese water torture" ever being employed by the Chinese. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find any evidence of it being employed in documented history. While it is undoubtedly an effective torture method (Constraint, discomfort, annoyance, inability to find a pattern, eventual pain), and has to have been used SOMEWHERE, it's historical significance is minute, if at all existent, in comparison to other forms of torture.
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The Doctor
Moon
I wear my sunglasses at night
Posts: 147
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Torture
Jun 3, 2010 21:56:51 GMT -5
Post by The Doctor on Jun 3, 2010 21:56:51 GMT -5
TBH, "chinese water torture" or waterboarding, sucks. It really sucks ass to be put through, and really, either the person have somekind of fear of drowning, or they are gonna resist till the end of the world, and really. Im speaking from experience. It sucks, ask anyone with any knowledge of interrogation! Threats is the way to go, its the ONLY thing that actually makes progress. Make their life SHIRT, and the threat to make it worse, deprive them of sleep and food, then threaten to kill their family, or country, then youll get results. Hurting people never got anyone anywhere. The only reason why people have tortured people for ages is because it scares the SHIRT out of the rest. If you cut parts of a person till he dies, youll gain nothing, if you do it while his comrades watch, You will win the war. Its as easy as that, Threats are the best torture of all.
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Torture
Jun 3, 2010 22:09:27 GMT -5
Post by jeradjones on Jun 3, 2010 22:09:27 GMT -5
How do you believe the idea for "Chinese Water Torture" came to be?
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The Doctor
Moon
I wear my sunglasses at night
Posts: 147
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Torture
Jun 3, 2010 22:56:38 GMT -5
Post by The Doctor on Jun 3, 2010 22:56:38 GMT -5
Someone who was afraid of drowing had an idea?
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Torture
Jun 3, 2010 23:09:19 GMT -5
Post by KipEnyan on Jun 3, 2010 23:09:19 GMT -5
TBH, "chinese water torture" or waterboarding, sucks. It really sucks ass to be put through, and really, either the person have somekind of fear of drowning, or they are gonna resist till the end of the world, and really. Im speaking from experience. It sucks, ask anyone with any knowledge of interrogation! Threats is the way to go, its the ONLY thing that actually makes progress. Make their life SHIRT, and the threat to make it worse, deprive them of sleep and food, then threaten to kill their family, or country, then youll get results. Hurting people never got anyone anywhere. The only reason why people have tortured people for ages is because it scares the SHIRT out of the rest. If you cut parts of a person till he dies, youll gain nothing, if you do it while his comrades watch, You will win the war. Its as easy as that, Threats are the best torture of all. I don't know where to start. I guess I'll start with the fact that Chinese water torture =/= waterboarding at all. Two entirely different methods of torture, one of which is borderline mythical, the other the US government has employed on numerous occasions and is markedly grievous. And you are NOT speaking from experience. "either the person have somekind of fear of drowning, or they are gonna resist till the end of the world"? Pardon? Do you have any idea how waterboarding works? It doesn't matter if you have a fear of drowning; an Olympic diver, a scuba instructor, and a Navy SEAL would all succumb to waterboarding in one way or another. There is no way to suppress the instinct to breathe, and to create the sensation that breathing is impossible and that your death by suffocation is imminent is a horrible thing that a human being should never be subjected to.
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The Doctor
Moon
I wear my sunglasses at night
Posts: 147
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Torture
Jun 3, 2010 23:18:43 GMT -5
Post by The Doctor on Jun 3, 2010 23:18:43 GMT -5
Yeah, chinese water torture is when you are exposed to a prolonged sensory provocation, for example water dripping on your forehead, youre completle right, I mixed them up, but waterboarding is redicoulus, I am talking from experience though, it doesnt work, its horrible, but not as horrible as stresspositions, and not as horrible as other non-harmful methods. Honestly, threats work better than actual force. That is a fact, ask any interrogator. Well ofcourse, if you ask a CIA, NSA, GRU, PLO or Mossad officer, they might answer differently... Pun aside, Torture is a joke, real interrogation on the otherhand may from time to time work better with some torture, especially as a threat, torture them for a small amout of time, just to make them realize whats to come. But mostly, tricking the victim is by far the most effectfull...
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Torture
Jun 4, 2010 15:07:58 GMT -5
Post by ladystardust on Jun 4, 2010 15:07:58 GMT -5
Speaking from experience? Seriously, Doctor. Unless you're a veteran who was a POW at some point, I fail to see how that is even possible. And no, having your friends subject you to it for a few hours as a prank does NOT count. "Torture" is defined by anguish of body or mind, INTENSE agony and/or pain. No torture victim will EVER say that it isn't "as horrible" as something else. It's traumatizing.
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The Doctor
Moon
I wear my sunglasses at night
Posts: 147
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Torture
Jun 4, 2010 15:19:58 GMT -5
Post by The Doctor on Jun 4, 2010 15:19:58 GMT -5
SERE training. I know its not the real thing. But waterboarding was not the worst part, all the psychological stuff, and sensorydeprevation was the thing that made most of us break...
Aaaanyhow, I dont think torture is useful, the stuff thats legal is more than enough. Btw I saw a movie the other night that was kinda about torture, anyone seen Unthinkable?
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Torture
Jun 5, 2010 22:17:25 GMT -5
Post by KipEnyan on Jun 5, 2010 22:17:25 GMT -5
I'm sorry Doctor, but please don't make any claims about waterboarding being "not so bad" until you have ACTUALLY been waterboarded. www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58Here's some of that SERE training you speak of. Seems pretttttty bad to me.
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The Doctor
Moon
I wear my sunglasses at night
Posts: 147
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Torture
Jun 6, 2010 19:46:33 GMT -5
Post by The Doctor on Jun 6, 2010 19:46:33 GMT -5
Yeah, Im not gonna argue with you guys any longer, its obvious that we experience things different. I dont say we should waterboard people. It is torture, we should interrogate them with conventional legal means.As I said, I experienced other things beeing by far worse. Things that are employed by local lawenforcment agencies across the world, like sleep deprevation and sensory deprevation. Watch the documentary about Guantanamo for eg. Most places where suspects are hold before trial have things resembeling to this, like no windows, no clocks, no sounds, just a plain cement cell with a plain wooden bench, and human contact a few times a day.
Ill just take a step back from this argument, since it wont go much farther from this while I am still involved. Ill just end with this, ask youre former presidentual candidate John Mccain if he broke due to torture the first few months...
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