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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2010 13:15:51 GMT -5
I think they mean that too general is something like universal happiness, while too specific would be something like curing cancer or collecting money to cure these people (insert people)
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Post by Ricky on Jun 15, 2010 14:10:26 GMT -5
Answering everyone's concers about Universal Happiness: I really disagree with "universal happiness" because I say now that it is impossible. I say we should make steps, as in: do small thing->little bigger thing-> etc. Ending in universal happiness. You can't do one thing to make universal happiness. I say we make little causes, and try to achieve. Small steps would be something like "make a charity" and medium would be "get list of morals approved by un" and large "end world hunger" and all of thus plus many more would mean universal happiness. People being hungry will need to be ended for universal happiness. Those are goals, not noble causes. The point is that its supposed to seem imposible since after we achieve it there wont be a need for the pogotribe anymore... This means that even if we choose Universal happiness, we can still set separated goals to achieve it. I think I said this before, but here's my views on Universal Happiness: There's a guy. Let's call him Enkidu. Enkidu likes to kill cute little old people. Killing cute little old people makes Enkidu happy. Now, Enkidu killed your grandmother. That would make you and your entire family very sad. Now, Enkidu got caught. Enkidu was sent to jail. This made Enkidu very sad. So, now your grandmother's family is sad, Enkidu is sad, and Enkidu's family is sad because Enkidu is in jail. Because Enkidu is sad, he escapes out of jail. This made the jail employees unhappy because they failed to do their jobs. Enkidu isn't that happy because he now has to run from the law. Enkidu's family isn't happy because their little Enkidu is appearing all the time on the news. Your family isn't happy because the man that killed Grandma Muriel is on the loose. In order to successfully stay out of jail, Enkidu kept killing people so they wouldn't rat him out. Enkidu killed 20 people. He finally got caught and was sentenced to death. Now, you're family is sad, the federal government is unhappy because they let that happen, Enkidu's family is sad because Enkidu's dead, the families and friends of all the people Enkidu killed are unhappy, and everyone is scared because the federal government wasn't able to catch Enkidu. All of that happened because of one man's attempt to be happy. If everyone in the world was able to be completely happy for an hour without repercussion, the world would be thrown into a year of despair. Well if the goal was to make everyone sad, then you just described the perfect steps to it. Then again, if the noble cause is Universal happiness it would go something like this: Since Enkidu is a three dimensional individual, and there is not only one side to him one of the things that make him happy is killing old people, but is not the only thing that could potentially make him happy. Say, he does end up killing your grandmother, and goes to jail. Since SPOTM avolished the death penalty in the US, he doesn't get killed. Also after said group also managed to change the legal system, by legalizing marijuana, the jails are no longer packed and security can spend more time watching him, which means he won’t escape. He then receives psychological treatment and learns about the reasons why he found the killing of elders entertaining. After years of therapy he begins to see the differences between good and bad, and with the help of trained individuals finds happiness on something else. On the other hand you and your family are sad that your grandmother was killed. It is much lessened after the fact that you are explained of the condition of the individual who killed her. Support groups made by SPOTM come and guide you in this awful time and help you see the bright side of life. After some time you and your family too find happiness. Some time goes by, and the killer now rehabilitated goes to your family and asks for forgiveness. They grant it, and everyone goes on with their happy lives. And "universal happiness" just isn't quantifiable and we would have no way of measuring whether or not we succeeded. The point is that its supposed to seem impossible to achieve. As to finding out if its achieved, well thats a problem you'll find with almost any noble cause. Even something as specific as to erradicate cancer... are you going to test everyone in the world? I'm not saying we shouldn't try to make the world more pleasant, but it's impossible to make everyone happy. with compromises I don't believe everyone can't achieve an acceptable level of happiness... I don't pretend to know what this steps are, but I believe its possible and with loads of creativity we can achieve it.
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Post by click3tyclick on Jun 15, 2010 16:06:46 GMT -5
...? I'm making a point. An insane person has a strange obsession with killing cute little old people. It makes him happy. Fine, I'll re-word it. There's a guy. Let's call him Enkidu. Enkidu likes to kill cute little old people. Killing cute little old people makes Enkidu happy. Now, Enkidu killed your grandmother. That would make you and your entire family very sad. Now, Enkidu got caught. Enkidu was sent to jail. This made Enkidu very sad. So, now your grandmother's family is sad, Enkidu is sad, and Enkidu's family is sad because Enkidu is in jail. Because Enkidu is sad, he escapes out of jail. This made the jail employees unhappy because they failed to do their jobs. Enkidu isn't that happy because he now has to run from the law. Enkidu's family isn't happy because their little Enkidu is appearing all the time on the news. Your family isn't happy because the man that killed Grandma Muriel is on the loose. In order to successfully stay out of jail, Enkidu kept killing people so they wouldn't rat him out. Enkidu killed 20 people. He finally got caught and was sentenced to death. Now, you're family is sad, the federal government is unhappy because they let that happen, Enkidu's family is sad because Enkidu's dead, the families and friends of all the people Enkidu killed are unhappy, and everyone is scared because the federal government wasn't able to catch Enkidu. You really couldn't read the rest because of three words? Not those three words. Some African kid who enjoys murdering innocent people is not a good example of why we shouldn't want universal happiness.
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earth
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Post by earth on Jun 15, 2010 22:20:47 GMT -5
isnt enkidu that guy from the epic of gilgamesh?
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Post by andromeda on Jun 17, 2010 16:28:35 GMT -5
To John- So universal "happiness" might not be exactly the right word to use. Maybe prosperity or liberty might be better words. Everyone should have the opportunity to pursue happiness (or prosperity, etc) in their own way, but when one person's happiness becomes a threat to the rest of the Tribe, you have to ask yourself what is more important- the individual's happiness, or the Tribe? At this point, the people who guide the Tribe (like our administrators here) should handle the situation by explaining why the individual's behavior is not good for the Tribe and helping them find happiness elsewhere (in Enkidu's situation, it might be allowing him to hunt, or practice on a closed shooting range, or martial arts, or something).
Hopefully, when the Tribe reaches Stage 5, issues like this won't exist. At Stage 5, we should be able to say "Hey, I'm an individual, but I also recognize that I am a part of something bigger than myself". When you understand how your actions will affect the Tribe as a whole, you will strive to do things that will benefit the Tribe, rather than hurt it. No Tribe is perfect, but hopefully we will be able to use our values to solve any problems that arise.
Moving on to the Noble Cause... As we move towards the process of choosing a Noble Cause, we should imagine it as if we're looking through a tunnel. The Noble Cause itself is the light at the end, while smaller, more specific goals are the path that lead us there. The Noble Cause should be IMPOSSIBLY BIG- something that we might not even be able to achieve in one lifetime- around which we would center the focus of our projects. Every project and goal we have would try to get one step closer towards the Noble Cause.
Linus questioned if we are really ready for this. I think we might just be. We have a lot of devoted and enthusiastic members, but we aren't focused. Everyone has seen the chaos on the project boards of both the Triads and Tribe members. It's difficult to keep a project going and growing with so many different concepts and goals. A Noble Cause should focus the Tribe towards really achieving something while still retaining the creative environment we love so much.
We have a good foundation as to what our Noble Cause is, we just need to find a name for it. That's the hard part. We're about to attempt something that has never been done before. It's going to be an amazing and difficult journey. I'm excited to show the world what this Tribe has to offer!
Love Always, Andromeda Vela
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Post by andromeda on Jun 17, 2010 16:51:53 GMT -5
Additionally, achieving the Noble Cause doesn't spell the end of the Pogotribe. We are and always will be a Tribe! I think Dan was trying to say that when we achieve the goal we won't NEED to exist.
Spiderman for example. His Noble Cause would be to eliminate all bad guys and make the town perfectly safe. Well, if the town was perfectly safe then the wouldn't NEED Spiderman to keep them safe anymore. Spiderman kicked a ton of badguy booty and ended worldsuck! He's done. But he still exists and is still awesome.
Our noble cause should be the same way. What does the world NEED us to do right now?
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Post by Ricky on Jun 17, 2010 17:42:11 GMT -5
but andromeda, things like prosperity and liberty should lead to happiness anyways. Why not aim to the final goal?
besides as you said, Universal happiness can be achieved by trying to compensate when one's happiness affects another's.
Edit: and yea it doesn't mean the pogotribe will stop existing, but it does mean there wont be a need for it
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Post by andromeda on Jun 17, 2010 20:59:23 GMT -5
I was trying to convey that the idea of "happiness" extended further than the momentary joy of an individual. Even at a perfect Stage 5 when the Noble Cause is achieved, we'll still have moments of sadness and anger and plenty of negative emotions. It's about the whole Tribe on a long-term basis. Prosperity and liberty seemed like good alternative words to explain the goal to someone who had an issue with the word "happiness".
And isn't it possible that it's the exact opposite? Happiness could be the path to liberty and prosperity. In America, we often talk about prosperity and liberty and it seems it's something we've already achieved in one sense or another. But most Americans are still searching for happiness. Maybe it's supposed to be the other way. Just a thought.
What if our Noble Cause was not to make everyone happy, but give them the chance to be? If we could provide a positive environment for the growth of ideas and a overwhelmingly large community of support to EVERY human being on Earth, then everything would just.... fall into place. We have already started it here in the forums, it's just the process of making it work well and then making it work BIG.
Think about it. The goals for the Noble Cause are very similar to the goals we have for the Pogotribe itself. What if the WHOLE WORLD was a Tribe?!? That's basically what we're going for here. One HUGE Stage 5 Tribe.
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Post by Ricky on Jun 17, 2010 23:05:00 GMT -5
I get where you are coming from, but I still strongly disagree. - For you first point, you explain that happiness is a momentary time of joy. I think you are forgetting how relative the term can actually be.
For example, if you already finished highschool you'll know that when someone asks you what it was like and you say "It was a very happy time of my life", you don't mean that every single moment of it was happy, right? You just mean that even though there were sad times, and obstacles the overall theme of that era was happiness. Thats what I mean when I say universal happiness. That the overall experience of everyone in the world should be that of joy.
- Secondly, you suggest that happiness might actually lead to liberty and prosperity.
Now, I believe you might have done this by accident, but you answer your own point:
"In America, we often talk about prosperity and liberty and it seems it's something we've already achieved in one sense or another. But most Americans are still searching for happiness."
which means that some Americans already have prosperity, and liberty but are still not happy.
Its the whole "won the lottery, but I'm still not happy" syndrome. Not having to worry about money won't matter, if you don't know how to be happy.
- Thirdly, you ask if the noble cause could be "giving the option to achieve happiness" instead of universal happiness.
Well in a sense we all have that chance already. In the case of the United States it lays with the Declaration of Independence in which everyone has the right to the pursuit of happiness.
but even in those countries in which the people of the nation are not free, they are still born with the right to achieve happiness. They still have that option of changing their conditions to achieve it. Yes, it might mean that it is quite more difficult for them than for you, but they do have that right.
Now even though this is a right, it doesn't mean it is easily achieved even in the best of conditions, as many all over the world go through their whole lives just trying to find it, but never doing so.
So in conclusion, our goal might be Universal Happiness, but the direction would be to help everyone in the world achieve it. Steps like ending world hunger, eradicating cancer, universal freedom, and prosperity, and many more are all just as important, but would only be steps towards the goal of Happiness.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2010 2:09:53 GMT -5
I get the feeling you didn't read her post that well. I get where you are coming from, but I still strongly disagree. - For you first point, you explain that happiness is a momentary time of joy. I think you are forgetting how relative the term can actually be.
For example, if you already finished highschool you'll know that when someone asks you what it was like and you say "It was a very happy time of my life", you don't mean that every single moment of it was happy, right? You just mean that even though there were sad times, and obstacles the overall theme of that era was happiness. Thats what I mean when I say universal happiness. That the overall experience of everyone in the world should be that of joy.
Andromeda says the same thing, that she's not talking about momentary happiness, but long term and widespread happiness. [/li][li] Secondly, you suggest that happiness might actually lead to liberty and prosperity. Now, I believe you might have done this by accident, but you answer your own point: "In America, we often talk about prosperity and liberty and it seems it's something we've already achieved in one sense or another. But most Americans are still searching for happiness." which means that some Americans already have prosperity, and liberty but are still not happy. Its the whole "won the lottery, but I'm still not happy" syndrome. Not having to worry about money won't matter, if you don't know how to be happy. [/quote] Andromeda says "happiness might lead to liberty and prosperty", you say "that's not possible, because in America some people are prosperous and free, but not happy", while she proposes to try it the other way. So your argument doesn't really apply here, as it's the same as what she said :/ [/li][li] Thirdly, you ask if the noble cause could be "giving the option to achieve happiness" instead of universal happiness. Well in a sense we all have that chance already. In the case of the United States it lays with the Declaration of Independence in which everyone has the right to the pursuit of happiness. but even in those countries in which the people of the nation are not free, they are still born with the right to achieve happiness. They still have that option of changing their conditions to achieve it. Yes, it might mean that it is quite more difficult for them than for you, but they do have that right. Now even though this is a right, it doesn't mean it is easily achieved even in the best of conditions, as many all over the world go through their whole lives just trying to find it, but never doing so. [/li][/ul] So in conclusion, our goal might be Universal Happiness, but the direction would be to help everyone in the world achieve it. Steps like ending world hunger, eradicating cancer, universal freedom, and prosperity, and many more are all just as important, but would only be steps towards the goal of Happiness. [/quote] Andromeda was talking about creating a climate where everyone is able to achieve happiness, not about letting people know that they have an option to create a climate to achieve happiness. If you're born in the slums in India or in a ghetto in South-Africa, you don't have a great climate to achieve happiness. I think andromeda wants to create a climate like that over the whole world. I think that would be a good idea. Think about it, what's the number one reason for people to go into crime, to commit suicide, to become a murderer,.. Growing up in a bad environment, not being given the same chances as other people,... Though I still think we should also include spreading accurate knowledge around the world in our Noble Cause.
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Post by Ricky on Jun 18, 2010 9:42:54 GMT -5
Ok, the first point is nullified, as we are both talking about the same thing now. Andromeda says "happiness might lead to liberty and prosperty", you say "that's not possible, because in America some people are prosperous and free, but not happy", while she proposes to try it the other way. So your argument doesn't really apply here, as it's the same as what she said :/ I'm sorry, the second point's issue was my fault because of the wording. by her saying that she proposes to try it the other way, she means that "happiness does NOT lead to liberty and prosperity" and my point was aimed at that. Since I quoted her I didn't noticed she started the argument the other way around hope that helps If we only create the environment and don't follow it until complision there wont be nothing to stop it from falling down. What I suggest is that we do create that environment, but still work with them until they can achieve the happiness itself.
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Post by andromeda on Jun 18, 2010 10:23:13 GMT -5
If we create the environment and make it strong, the rest should take care of itself. You can't just force someone into happiness or give them a quick fix. It has to be their own journey.
The type of environment I'm dreaming of wouldn't be one that is just there for a moment to get the happy train rolling. It would be a complete global community that, when created, would always exist. When one person dreams up an idea for happiness, every other Tribe member would be right there with him giving support in what ever way they could until the goal was reached.
Ricky, you mention several specific goals. These are goals for happiness that could be attained in a Stage 5 Tribal environment. With an entire global community working with you on these, phenomenal amounts of progress could be made. Possible examples... *Ending world hunger- In a global Stage 5, Tribe members would look out for one another. *Curing cancer- A global community sharing ideas and resources for treatment could show great leaps and bounds in all fields of medicine. *Freedom/Peace- A Stage 5 Tribe already has attained these.
And even with all of these large goals, the Tribe could still be there for the smaller ones as well.
Crrack- I definitely think that global information should be a priority. Free education would be a beneficial part of the environment.
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Post by Ricky on Jun 18, 2010 10:45:28 GMT -5
I don't think its forcing someone when it seems to be the ultimate goal anyways... Its like saying "Andromeda, I'll force you to breath air. Do it now!" you wouldn't really care because its something you want and need.
All i'm saying is that if they need help with their "journey", we should be there to help them too. If what they need is that they have to do it by themselves, then we would help by not interrupting and getting obstacles out of their way.
The thing is you are not really mentioning anything that wouldn't be covered already by Universal happiness. In a way Stage 5 tribal environment is to Happiness, as Happiness is to a Stage 5 tribal environment. The only difference really, is that you suggest we create the environment and there wont be a need for the tribe to exist anymore. Where I suggest we should exist to a time much later than this.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2010 13:35:18 GMT -5
You're 100% correct there. Creating the environment can't be our Noble Cause, because we'd have to dissolve the tribe then.
Would it be more accurate if we would say that things like -Creating an environment where everyone can achieve happiness -Spreading accurate knowledge across the world -...
should all be steps in the process of reaching the Noble Cause, which would be creating a (global) society where everyone has achieved happiness and everyone is in the level 5 mindset?
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Post by Ricky on Jun 18, 2010 19:48:23 GMT -5
"(global) society where everyone has achieved happiness and everyone is in the level 5 mindset"
long title, but very accurate xD
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rcn927
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Post by rcn927 on Jun 19, 2010 9:37:57 GMT -5
I think that this should be the first thing decided, but it's too late for that. I think that it should not have to do with anything specific, as projects are varied.
It should have to do with building a bigger internet community
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2010 9:49:25 GMT -5
Pogotribe shouldn't be only about the internet dude.
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Post by Ferrrrrre on Jun 19, 2010 10:24:44 GMT -5
Pogotribe shouldn't be only about the internet dude. Indeed, it's not that we need to enlarge THE internet community because take a look we already are quite vast around here but we try to use these vast group of people, who are scattered around the globe.. As for the noble cause; I guess we all agree it involves helping other and ourselfs.. whether your talking about universal happiness or some of the other examples around here; I guess the Socratic method is something that we can use to help us form our noble cause.. Some other things i'd like to put out there; * "Helping ourselves by helping others" * Information/communication is an import ingredient of our society.. [/ 2 cents]
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Post by andromeda on Jun 19, 2010 10:27:47 GMT -5
But guys, like I said before, achieving the Noble Cause does NOT spell the end of the Pogotribe. I really wish Dan would pop up on here and rephrase what he said in the Pogotok because it seems to be scaring a lot of people.
And if our Noble Cause is to create a global Stage 5 Tribe, then our cause will never end. When someone founds a nation they don't just name it and move on, they set in place guidelines and cultures and values and continue the process by teaching it to new generations so the nation will thrive long after they are gone. Have you forgotten everything you've been taught here on the Moon?
And if you think we'll achieve this Noble Cause in our lifetime, you must know something I don't because getting the ENTIRE world to reach Stage 5 is going to be a journey that might take decades or longer. So it's not like we're going to work for a couple weeks and then never act as a Tribe again.
If you think our Tribe is so easily lost, maybe you don't have enough faith in it. We will continue as long as there are people who are striving to create a real community. Our work will never be done.
The only issue I have with Ricky's title, is that it stops. I'm sure that it wasn't meant that way, but to be clear, our goal should be to influence each new generation to continue our work. Like the Triadic process here, but MUCH MUCH bigger.
The reason I used Tribe instead of happiness is because we already have guidelines to build a Tribe, whereas happiness is a little more vague (at least in my eyes). But you are right, they are essentially the same thing. I just think Tribe kind of captures what I'm striving for a bit more and it also includes the other 5 goals that the Pogotribe came up with for the Noble Cause.
Long enough for you?
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Post by Jake on Jun 19, 2010 14:34:34 GMT -5
In regards to the "Universal Happiness" discussion: Universal Happiness is not, by definition, "everyone is happy ALL of the time". It's just, as the name suggests, a universal feeling of happiness. And in regards to the weird story about Endiku or whatever he was called, why don't we just give him therapy so he finds happiness in ways other than killing?
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