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Post by nickgreyden on Jul 9, 2010 11:27:55 GMT -5
The representatives decide, or each person decides? Which is better? How is it better? How or could it blend to be better still? Discuss.
And for those of you who may be confused, the united states is a republic not a democracy, hence "I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the republic for which it stands..."
I'll let a few people weigh in before I give my opinion. Bomb, I'm eagerly awaiting your POV.
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Post by bombmaniac on Jul 9, 2010 12:13:58 GMT -5
think about it this way...look at the healthcare bill. (do not make the healthcare bill the focus of this thread people...im using it as an example.) a grand total of 535 people were supposed to read, and vote on this legislation. they voted on it...but did not read it. or at least some of them did not read it. these are people who are PAID to read this stuff. that is their job. and they didnt. yet they voted anyway. now take that to the national scale...imagine 300 million uninformed idiots who dont know their asses from their elbows, voting on something they are clueless about ! 300 million people who draw all of their opinions from either CNN or Fox News...wow. give me a republic any day.
that being said, while i do not believe direct democracy could work, i DO think that the opinions of constituents should be taken into account more than it is currently. there could be something like "opinion referendums". polls to gauge public opinion, and have elected officials take that data into account. however, direct referendums on almost any laws would be ridiculous.
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Post by krzych32 on Jul 9, 2010 12:28:45 GMT -5
The reason why I rather live in a republic then in a democracy is that Republics have constitutions. I find that very important because constitution is what keeps majority from taking the minorities rights from them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2010 12:34:50 GMT -5
The reason why I rather live in a republic then in a democracy is that Republics have constitutions. I find that very important because constitution is what keeps majority from taking the minorities rights from them. Democracies can have constitutions as well... Just sayin'. Personally, I believe that "opinion referendums" would work perfectly for laws. That being said, a Direct Voting System is most definitely needed for the voting of representatives and presidents (the latter of which we don't have due to technological faults back when the system was created. This is no longer the case, we have the internet and live ballot systems.)
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Post by bombmaniac on Jul 9, 2010 12:50:57 GMT -5
that has no bearing on democracy...we do have direct vote on everything but the presidency, that could change no, i don't think anyone will contest that.
the only problem with this thread, is that i don't see how any intelligent person could possibly agree with an absolute complete direct democracy...unless there were laws requiring everyone to be well informed on every single social and economic issue...hehehe think of law enforcement then...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2010 13:04:37 GMT -5
the only problem with this thread, is that i don't see how any intelligent person could possibly agree with an absolute complete direct democracy...unless there were laws requiring everyone to be well informed on every single social and economic issue...hehehe think of law enforcement then... I agree. Laws need to be studied by professionals. I'm sure 75% of America would vote 'yes' if they made a bill that made all speed-limits null, because they just have no idea what they would be doing or talking about. That being said, the system does need a reformation. For example, what if you vote for a representative that promises very many things, but actually goes into office doing the complete opposite? Nothing is binding him to his promises by law. Yes, you can vote him out, but you would have to wait two years. As a personal example of this, John Sanford, the Govenor of South Carolina, (yes, the one who cheated on his wife in Argentina using state funds) has always been a very large public supporter of the music and arts programs while going in for re-election, and yet he has repeatedly tried to pass bills that strip the funding from these very programs. In fact, there is a bill going through verification right now that may take away 60% of the arts funding in this state.
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Post by bombmaniac on Jul 9, 2010 13:16:40 GMT -5
you mean something like an "impeachment referendum"? THAT could get interesting!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2010 13:21:19 GMT -5
you mean something like an "impeachment referendum"? THAT could get interesting! Ha, that would be, actually! I know that almost EVERYBODY down here in SC wanted Sanford out when the news came in, and many people still do, but apparently adultery (and misuse of state fundings for said adultery) is okay when you're a politician. You just get a slap on the wrist and it's all okay
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Post by bombmaniac on Jul 9, 2010 14:18:37 GMT -5
lol take a look at our esteemed 42nd president...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2010 14:29:19 GMT -5
lol take a look at our esteemed 42nd president... Oh America, how you never cease to amaze me
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Post by bombmaniac on Jul 9, 2010 14:33:34 GMT -5
Clinton took AMERICA! FUCK YEAH! the wrong way...
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Post by James McClelland on Jul 9, 2010 15:25:59 GMT -5
No matter how smart Americans think they are, about...ehh....well, a large amount of Americans are very bias and ignorant. Making America a true democracy would make matters worse. We are not ready for a true democracy.
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Post by Ryan on Jul 9, 2010 15:45:43 GMT -5
Calling everyone's attention to the fact that while the USA is not a true democracy, it is in fact not a true republic. It is a mix of both, a democratic republic. I'm not saying that it doesn't need re-working, in fact a law that binds representatives to the will of his/her represented would be most helpful, and an impeachment referendum would nice, but the US government is not a true republic (A government in which the representatives are chosen and represent the solely the will of the choosers along with having no executive branch).
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Post by krzych32 on Jul 9, 2010 16:06:06 GMT -5
No matter how smart Americans think they are, about...ehh....well, a large amount of Americans are very bias and ignorant. Making America a true democracy would make matters worse. We are not ready for a true democracy. And this is not true with every nation?
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Post by James McClelland on Jul 9, 2010 18:32:10 GMT -5
No matter how smart Americans think they are, about...ehh....well, a large amount of Americans are very bias and ignorant. Making America a true democracy would make matters worse. We are not ready for a true democracy. And this is not true with every nation? It's humans and human culture in general.
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Post by nickgreyden on Jul 10, 2010 12:40:07 GMT -5
Wow, SPOTM never ceases to amaze me. Yes it's true that the US is not a true Republic. However, while I like to think of myself as an intelligent person, I've very aware of the fact that there are those that are much more intelligent than I, and it's those that are much more capable leaders. An impeachment referendum would be nice to see. However, something to bind a representative to the will of the people would be a bad idea imo due to the previously mentioned ignorance of the people. Though it would slow things down to a crawl, I'm also a fan of one bill, one law. Anything not dealing intimately with the bill at hand can not be added to a bill. Helps stop the buying of votes, as well as making bills more cut and dry.
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bullskitur
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Intelligence requires not confusing what you believe with what you know
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Post by bullskitur on Jul 10, 2010 14:34:34 GMT -5
Republic is much better, if there was true democracy and everyone would have to vote on everything then pretty soon attendance would probably drop to 10-20% of eligible voters. Maybe in the biggest cases with the most media coverage attendance would be above 50%. Also I suppose then also everyone could present a bill. Then maybe there would be 1000 new bills per day and they would be about something like lowering taxes and making parking tickets illegal.
I would rather have a true republic than a true democracy.
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Post by KipEnyan on Jul 11, 2010 17:53:26 GMT -5
I disagree. I think in a true democracy, voter participation would be SUBSTANTIALLY higher than in our current system. One of the most common excuses for not voting in our democratic republic is because they feel their vote doesn't matter. It'd sure as hell matter if it was a direct vote on the laws that would govern their life.
I would LOVE for their to be a place where a true democracy is possible. If we raised our education standards by roughly 300% it might be plausible, but still wrought with problems.
I vote that our noble cause be to accumulate enough money to buy a very large tract of land from whatever country will sell it to us, and make our own country where all violent criminals are immediately deported, and to even get into the country you have to have an IQ of at LEAST 120 and pass a set of intellectual, psychological, and rationality tests. Then we can have a true direct democracy.
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bullskitur
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Post by bullskitur on Jul 11, 2010 22:08:49 GMT -5
I disagree. I think in a true democracy, voter participation would be SUBSTANTIALLY higher than in our current system. One of the most common excuses for not voting in our democratic republic is because they feel their vote doesn't matter. It'd sure as hell matter if it was a direct vote on the laws that would govern their life. I disagree with your disagreement. In Switzerland there is a system called "half-direct democracy" there they vote maybe four times a year over various things and votes cast are usually 25-45% and they don't even have to show up at some polling stations, they can send their vote by mail if they want to. Even at some very controversial issues turnout only slightly exceeds 60%, No other country would want the violent criminals, at least not for free, so you would have to either pay large sums of money to other countries or dump them into the ocean. What if a couple have a kid and he only has an IQ of 115 and doesn't like politics? Deport him when he turns 18?
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Post by IMAGINARYphilosophy on Jul 11, 2010 23:01:33 GMT -5
This discussion is making benevolent dictatorship more and more appealing.
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