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Post by Ricky on Apr 11, 2011 18:12:45 GMT -5
Today in school I had to wait in a friend's French class while I waited a half an hour until my archaeology class started. Anyways, the topic of Feminism came up. To me feminism means the equality of opportunity for both men and women. This can be in work, family or anything in our society. As the conversation went on I was surprised to find out that in a class of 4 women and 2 guys (me included) I was the only one that agreed with the concept. Most of them said it was impossible to achieve and that men and women performed differently. Also, it was suggested that women who are feminists begin a competition with the other sex and therefore the family suffers. My point to that was that everyone should, as previously stated, have the same chances to do as they please, and if some people that follow the ideology start to discriminate the other sex it is a problem with them understanding the concept, not the idea itself. Furthermore if family suffers it is because the values of the person involved are faulty not because they have an opportunity to do as the other sex does. This whole dilemma really depressed me. Am I alone in the way I think, am I right in suggesting that equality is not a pipe dream and something that should not be feared by either sex?
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Post by Insane_Zang on Apr 11, 2011 18:20:13 GMT -5
feminism annoys me in the sense that it clashes would chivalry. You can't have both. Aside from that, I do agree about equal opportunities between the genders
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Post by Chelsea on Apr 11, 2011 18:23:03 GMT -5
Most people that oppose feminism just.. don't get it.. I remember last time this discussion came up here, someone was like "Feminism is about women trying to get MORE rights than men," which is a flat-out lie. But it's hard to say feminism is X. There are literally hundreds of different feminisms and they all state different things.
Even if men and women are inherently different, that doesn't mean they can't be equal. Not all men are the same just by the virtue of them being male, either. Some people have natural advantages over others, regardless of sex.
A lot of people just generalize and say things like "Feminism is about women having the same rights as men, but in America they already do, so feminists just need to shut up now." Maybe we legally have the same rights (arguable), but socially, we're still treated differently. For me personally, being a feminist simply means that you acknowledge that our society treats men and women differently, and you want that to end.
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Post by Ricky on Apr 11, 2011 18:29:47 GMT -5
Thats exactly my point Chelsea, what some people from my class didn't get was that I wasn't suggesting that women should start getting opportunities for just being women.
For example they were talking about construction, and they said "there is no way there could be equality in construction"
Then I said, "yea physically it makes sense that there would end up being more males in the job site, that being said any woman should be able to apply for any kind of job, including construction. If a person doesn't get it, it should be because they didn't meet the minimum requirements which should be attainable to all"
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Flappy
Star
Grrr! But not really....
Posts: 577
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Post by Flappy on Apr 11, 2011 18:36:47 GMT -5
Basically people, and even feminists, skew the meaning of the idea to basically mean "empowerment of women". And leave it at that. Which, basically, is very sexist. They attribute feminism with the ideology that "women are better than men", "women are the superior sex", etc.
Feminism, as you've stated, means equality between men and women. Equal pay, equal job opportunities. No descrimination at work, etc.
I definitely consider myself a feminist.
There's also a term, "Equalist" or "Equalism". Which means the same thing. But I think it's a bad term. It further enforces the misunderstanding of the word "feminism".
Anyway, that's basically my viewpoint.
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Post by 4iner on Apr 11, 2011 20:12:28 GMT -5
I've never really under stood this: if feminism has to do with the pursuit of gender equality, then what is masculism ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism)? The same thing? Should we consider it "feminist" to argue for gender equality in issues such as the draft?
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Post by Ryan on Apr 11, 2011 20:28:31 GMT -5
People - including the people who make law, have a fundamental misunderstanding of equal opportunity. This has skewed the definition of feminism. Feminism SHOULD be the non-discrimination based on the gender of female in positions and situations where females are not considered a majority.
This doesn't mean that a construction company should hire women because it is equal opportunity. This means that should a woman apply, and meet the physical needs (just as the men must), that she should be allowed to work with no discrimination based on her gender.
Egalitarianism is actually the BEST term that should be accepted. This means not that men and woman or different races or ages should be equal. But rather they should be non-discriminated against equally.
People are not equal. People are not greater or less than other people. This one dimensional methodology of comparing people is what has lead to the misunderstanding of the principal behind feminism, masculism, and egalitarianism. Discrimination is 1 dimensional. Discrimination (or lack there of) should be equal.
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ryan
Moon
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Post by ryan on Apr 11, 2011 20:30:55 GMT -5
i agree that women r different but the outliers of both sex kinda skew the differences...
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Post by Lyserg Zeroz on Apr 11, 2011 20:48:46 GMT -5
I think that women and men should have the same opportunities.
Equality shouldn't be feared by either sex, and I don't think equality is just a dream. But at the same time, there are biological differences that can't just be obviated and that can affect good part of the discussion and can affect good part of the problematic.
Example: I was of the opinion that both men and women should be paid the same. But then my mother (as part of her spare time she did gender studies) and my brother (business engineer) had this discussion about the differences of payment for both genders. I still am of the opinion that both should be payed the same, but I understand why this doesn't necessarily happen and that sometimes there is good reasons for that. Women can cost more than man because of pregnancy. Women may need to take whole months off their jobs. Replace is needed, sometimes an experienced and valuable worker has to be replaced, the new has to get used to the company, and has to catch up (if possible) to the work of the women that left. Women cost more because of complications that only a woman can cause.
Not saying that there is no sexism sometimes, just trying to say that there may actually be reasons for this kind of problems that go beyond it.
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Post by Chelsea on Apr 11, 2011 20:53:53 GMT -5
I've never really under stood this: if feminism has to do with the pursuit of gender equality, then what is masculism ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism)? The same thing? Should we consider it "feminist" to argue for gender equality in issues such as the draft? Yeah, masculism is similar to feminism.. It basically questions men's roles/expectations in society... it's just from a different point of view. And yes, we should consider it feminism to argue for gender equality in the draft... except to argue in favor of the draft in the first place is dumb, so that argument is silly...
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Quinn
Star
[AWD:191c07]
The eye of compromise.
Posts: 580
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Post by Quinn on Apr 14, 2011 20:42:10 GMT -5
I don't believe in feminism... I believe in equality.
Argument: Why should there be women-only colleges when there are no men-only colleges.
Both men and women have completely the same potential for greatness.
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Post by Ryan on Apr 14, 2011 20:48:44 GMT -5
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Post by Nancy R. on Apr 15, 2011 4:25:02 GMT -5
I would like to go to a women-only college.
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Post by Ryan on Apr 15, 2011 9:33:22 GMT -5
Come to the states Nancy - there's one right down the street from me.
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Quinn
Star
[AWD:191c07]
The eye of compromise.
Posts: 580
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Post by Quinn on Apr 15, 2011 9:46:55 GMT -5
There are like 25 in the Southern California area...
(Let's not let this turn into a Single-Gender edu. debate...)
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Post by Nancy R. on Apr 15, 2011 10:42:15 GMT -5
Come to the states Nancy - there's one right down the street from me. Chicks everywhere and chance to go with Ryan for a coffee? IN!
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Post by elanetto on Apr 15, 2011 16:30:05 GMT -5
I think that the word "feminism" have gotten a negative meaning for some people. I've been in discussions about feminism, and have been surprised at how a lot of guys seem to automatically shrug at it, and say "I hate feminists!"
To quote what Celsea said: Some people think that - "Feminism is about women trying to get MORE rights than men,"
- that's exactly what these guys thinks. And that feminists wont be happy before all men are stay-at-home dads while their wives earn the living. Which, of course, is not the case.
I think that a lot of people simply have tossed and turned on the meaning behind feminism. If I simply said that "I believe in equal rights," there wouldn't be an argument about it. But as soon as I'd say "I'm a feminist" instead, the whole world would break down.
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Post by qooqǝɯɐƃ on Apr 16, 2011 18:20:28 GMT -5
Why call it feminism if it's about equality? It should be called, get this, the EQUALITY movement! Not feminism. There are roots to all equality issues, those should be the target of equality activism. But I agree with you Ricky, equality is about providing the environment for equality, not forcing or expecting everyone to be equal in every way.
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Post by Ricky on Apr 16, 2011 20:23:43 GMT -5
I like the people in this forum ^^
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Post by qooqǝɯɐƃ on Apr 16, 2011 21:12:21 GMT -5
meh
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