RabbitWho
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Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 3, 2010 18:26:31 GMT -5
I know it's one of the things we have to aim for, and I'm all for listening to other peoples opinions.. But here's the thing. I'm not that intelligent. If I listen to someone more intelligent than me talk about something I am quite often swayed. I believe you can make a logical argument for most things. Which is why I have golden rules, and I think most people do. The golden rule is what you've reached when you have a discussion with someone and you say "Let's just agree to disagree". Logically they have won, but you still know you're right, because of your golden rule, everyone has different ones. The golden rule is a moral compass, it's a vague but strong feeling you get that isn't expressible in words, but that you try to support with words if you can, just to make other people understand you. For example I live in a place where racism towards a particular group of people is widespread and accepted even among the most educated of people. In the culture i was used to racism was something associated with uneducated and aggressive people and therefore easy to avoid, here it affects people from all walks of life, the nicest most intelligent and gentle people you'll ever meet. So of course I'm going to run into someone with 3 PHDs and 20 years on me and twice the IQ and they're going to be racist and there's going to be nothing I can do to argue with them. So what do I do? Do I just bend and become racist as well? Do I follow every intelligent person I meet in life? No. Because I have my golden rule "No one is better than anyone else and no type of people is different from any other type of people" This is not a hypothetical situation this is my reality. Before I came here this really was not an issue. I really did not realize that intelligent and educated people could be racist, it just does not occur in my culture, racism only stems from ignorance or perhaps some bad experience and narrowmindedness there. It was a huge shock for me. Even more shocking was how quickly it started to leak into my own head. I don't want to make this a discussion about that group of people so I'm just going to say "purple hair" (I used to have purple hair so purple hair people don't be offended, I choose it randomly). If people tell you things every day like "Watch your wallet when you' see someone with purple hair" and "All they do is drink and take drugs and sit around all day" and "They don't want to learn, they don't want to work, they just want handouts from the government" and "they are violent" "they are thieves" etc. etc. It does start to have an effect on you, you do start to feel that stupid fear, which is the first step and something taught to children so they won't make any purple haired friends at school and bring them home to leave purple fingerprints all over the tablecloth. The only thing I have to fight this is the golden rule, I can't use logic. Okay I know enough about people and sociology to know that if it is true that purple haired people act like this, it's pretty easy to figure out why, but that's not going to help in an argument; believe me it's not enough - they have an answer for everything. This is what I got when I Google "Purple hair oppression" I've no idea what it is.. well it's a lithograph.. or an impression of one, but don't know what its about[/size] This golden rule is my closed mind, and while it protects me from becoming someone I don't want to be, I see that it's the same thing that stops other people from, for example, accepting homosexuality. Because their golden rule tells them it's wrong. They might try and build arguments on top of that feeling, but it's the feeling that drives them and keeps them from being able to see the other persons point of view. My golden rule tells me homosexuality is a non-issue, perfectly natural and beautiful. And though we may argue in words when I meet that person we're really arguing in unchangeable emotional attatchments to golden rules, so we're never going to listen to eaach other or understand each other or get on. There's a story in Irish folklore that kind of relates to this, i know the religious people will like this A long long time ago when Christianity was just after coming to Ireland for the first time there was a pagan Druid. He was a very clever adviser to the High King and legendary for this and he loved to argue and debate, he would do this all the time just for fun. He once convinced a man that black was white, and then he convinced him that white was black, till in the end the poor man didn't believe in any colors at all. When Saint Patrick came to Ireland he came to speak to the High King, and the Druid scoffed! He argued so well and so logically that it was clear to anyone that listened (Including the high king) that Jesus and the Christian God and Souls could never possibly have existed. And then Saint Patrick or Moaithcaoimbh-og or someone had a word him and there was a miracle, i forget, and he realized that souls existed. And he ran back to the High King and begged him, said he had to beleive him, that he was wrong, that god existed. And the High king scoffed just has he had before, and regurgitated all the same old arguments that he himself had used, he couldn't fight him. So he said, alright, if I can show you a soul will you beleive? And the high king agreed. So the druid took the Kings sword and cut himself in half with it, and from his body rose a single white butterfly. And that's the origin of butterflies and Christianity in Ireland (Because if you convert a king you convert all his followers, so that's why Saint. Patrick was more successful than other missionaries, he targeted Kings) Alright, so I get that this story originally promoted blind faith. But is blind faith a bad thing if it's in "Don't hurt anyone ever!!!" or "Be nice!" ( I always forget massive key parts of stories) What do you think? Have you got golden rules? What are they? Are they a bad thing to have? Should we always be completely open to every idea?While I believe that you can make a logical argument for anything and that your basic feelings are unchanging I believe that what motivates those feelings is complete luck. I think that what people believe is based on geography and family and friends and what they happen to come across when they're reading or watching TV. There's only a little bit of us in most of these things. And yet we allow these things to separate us, and they're the main things that separate us. Is that right? [edit: i added lots of pictures for those of you with short attention spans]
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Nakor
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Non-Prophet
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Post by Nakor on Apr 3, 2010 19:03:24 GMT -5
I know it's one of the things we have to aim for, and I'm all for listening to other peoples opinions.. But here's the thing. I'm not that intelligent. If I listen to someone more intelligent than me talk about something I am quite often swayed. I believe you can make a logical argument for most things. Which is why I have golden rules, and I think most people do. The golden rule is what you've reached when you have a discussion with someone and you say "Let's just agree to disagree". Logically they have won, but you still know you're right, because of your golden rule, everyone has different ones. The golden rule is a moral compass, it's a vague but strong feeling you get that isn't expressible in words, but that you try to support with words if you can, just to make other people understand you. Some people often think they've won because you've ceased to continue the argument, however agreeing to disagree (or simply tiring of the argument and buggering off) does not mean the other party has won anything. That said I know exactly where you're going with the golden rule bit... No arguments here. But you can use logic. You are merely basing that logic on your golden rule. More below... All quite true. I think it can still be dishonest to one's self. I also think that it's rarely as cut and dry as that, and people who think gays can't marry and who think slavery is okay all thought they were nice people and didn't think they were doing harm... but clearly they were/are. What you call a golden rule is basically some standard that you allow to serve as an ultimate fact of sorts -- one thing that you don't question. For example, most of us start off with "we really do see what it is that we're seeing" (and the same for all the other senses) or we'd all go mad. The religious may place their religion here (though the more casually religious may not). Me, I place science here; the one thing we can trust over all other things is our own observations, and all the logical deductions we can build from those. You can make something that seems like a logical argument for anything, in most cases they aren't as logical as others would have you believe. Unfortunately it's not always easy to tell the difference. Morals and ethics are more of a grey area again. Experiences growing up (and even after we grow up) absolutely have an impact on opinions. One needs only look at how different regions within the US alone differ so much from each other. Red vs blue states, the bible belt, and so forth, clearly the attitudes of a region influence those who grow up and live there. --- All that said, I don't think that any of this means it's bad to be open-minded. You cannot assume, for example, that someone raised under a dogma that is otherwise all 'good' things would become bad if they became open-minded. Open-mindedness is simply about how much you are willing to consider new ideas -- not about how many of them you choose to accept.
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Post by ligerman30 on Apr 3, 2010 19:24:45 GMT -5
open-mindedness is not a bad thing dude, I mean just cause someone is intelegent does not make them right on EVERYTHING hell, im pretty smart, I'm willing to atmit i don't know everything! Just because a person is intelegent and THINKS their right on a topic doesn't mean they are.
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RabbitWho
Star
Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
Posts: 808
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 3, 2010 19:30:15 GMT -5
Maybe logic can be used, but not by me after a certain point, at a certain point I fall down. No matter how clever you are and no matter how good at arguing there will always be someone who is better. And if you let loosing an argument be what changes your mind then your mind will change very often. You can see this happening on this debate forum a lot, people running out of argument and feeling completely lost, or people (I assume older ones with more solidified golden rules) simply repeating what they already said again and again, or giving up and thinking you'll never understand, or realizing they've reached an end in their reasoning and having to think to themselves that they're right but they've no idea why. OR actually changing their minds. (Which I'm guessing is the rarest? I don't know, I've only been here a day, but in other places it's certainly the rarest)
Not so much basing as I have the golden rule and then I try and find logic to support it. Forever working backwards.
of course, racist friends simply think they are realistic and that's "just the way the world is."
funny you mention that as it was one of the main arguments at all times of the Druid in the story, that's why he had to show the King his soul for him to believe it.
I'm afraid of it, I don't know how much i can consider it without suddenly adopting it and not even realizing, these things can just get in one drop at a time, and I'm a pretty suggestible person I think. Maybe not. My opinion has completely flipped on a few things several times, but where these "ultimate facts" as you said apply i can always fight the change.
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Post by Breepop on Apr 3, 2010 20:05:10 GMT -5
no
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RabbitWho
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Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
Posts: 808
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 3, 2010 20:30:51 GMT -5
I don't believe you, could you expand your argument?
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Post by Johncoyne on Apr 3, 2010 20:32:00 GMT -5
An open mind is always a good thing, but it's your responsibility to believe what is right.
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Silverrida
Moon
Infinity - So far away yet around us at the same time
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Post by Silverrida on Apr 3, 2010 20:51:53 GMT -5
I find it funny that you are arguing your point about not being able to argue points.
I will post a serious counter-argument later. It might have to wait 'till tomorrow though.
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RabbitWho
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Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
Posts: 808
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 3, 2010 21:27:55 GMT -5
I find it funny that you are arguing your point about not being able to argue points. I will post a serious counter-argument later. It might have to wait 'till tomorrow though. Ha ha right on both counts, the birds are singing, i should go to bed.
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Post by zAkAtAk on Apr 3, 2010 21:28:51 GMT -5
This thread has way too many words.
Will read later.
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Cortney
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[AWD:0c15]The Objectioner
The Bown
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Post by Cortney on Apr 3, 2010 21:29:16 GMT -5
I don't believe you, could you expand your argument? Open minds lead to brainstorming which leads to new ideas which leads to progress. That's my reason for "no." I don't know about Bree. I just wanted to quote her because I like her. She's hot. k.
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RabbitWho
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Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
Posts: 808
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 3, 2010 21:46:15 GMT -5
This thread has way too many words. Will read later. Don't feel bad, I suspect a few people here only read the title of the thread, because it looks like they're not contributing to the discussion or aware at all of where I'm coming from. I don't believe you, could you expand your argument? Open minds lead to brainstorming which leads to new ideas which leads to progress. That's my reason for "no." I don't know about Bree. I just wanted to quote her because I like her. She's hot. k. That's super cool but how do you feel about what I actually said?
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Post by metallica210 on Apr 3, 2010 22:19:55 GMT -5
TLDR -_-
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Post by stephen5000 on Apr 3, 2010 22:30:18 GMT -5
I think that it is quite common for young people to be easily swayed by an argument, especially one presented by someone in a position of authority such as a teacher. You should be open-minded to new ideas, but part of being open-minded to realize that what is being told to you could be wrong. The person of authority could be biased and their argument could be invalid. In other words, being open-minded means not making decisions or changing your point of view without collecting all the facts, looking at all possibilities, old and new. (and of course your willingness to do so should it be warranted)
If you want a good "golden rule" that still allows you to be open-minded, perhaps this would be good: "Be skeptical of all claims, regardless of popularity and of where the idea came from." (note that it says "be skeptical of" not "automatically reject")
If you feel that you can't make a sound decision regarding a particular issue on your own, don't. You can always reserve judgment until you know more about the issue.
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RabbitWho
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Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
Posts: 808
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 3, 2010 22:44:28 GMT -5
I think that it is quite common for young people to be easily swayed by an argument, especially one presented by someone in a position of authority such as a teacher. You should be open-minded to new ideas, but part of being open-minded to realize that what is being told to you could be wrong. The person of authority could be biased and their argument could be invalid. In other words, being open-minded means not making decisions or changing your point of view without collecting all the facts, looking at all possibilities, old and new. (and of course your willingness to do so should it be warranted) If you want a good "golden rule" that still allows you to be open-minded, perhaps this would be good: "Be skeptical of all claims, regardless of popularity and of where the idea came from." (note that it says "be skeptical of" not "automatically reject") If you feel that you can't make a sound decision regarding a particular issue on your own, don't. You can always reserve judgment until you know more about the issue. I guess the thing to do is to never listen passively, to check out everything the other person says if it has the potential to change my mind about something. You are right, this is good advice. But as I don't really have the mental facilities or mental resources to do all the research and understand all the research and process all the research and remember (this is key!) all the research it's probably best to just not have an opinion on anything, rather than having an uninformed one; one given to me by someone else, or one I just "felt" my way to. I think I'm like the fella in the story that didn't believe in colors. Sorry, punctuation, coherency, tired.
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Nakor
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Non-Prophet
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Post by Nakor on Apr 4, 2010 1:36:39 GMT -5
Maybe logic can be used, but not by me after a certain point, at a certain point I fall down. No matter how clever you are and no matter how good at arguing there will always be someone who is better. And if you let loosing an argument be what changes your mind then your mind will change very often. You can see this happening on this debate forum a lot, people running out of argument and feeling completely lost, or people (I assume older ones with more solidified golden rules) simply repeating what they already said again and again, or giving up and thinking you'll never understand, or realizing they've reached an end in their reasoning and having to think to themselves that they're right but they've no idea why. OR actually changing their minds. (Which I'm guessing is the rarest? I don't know, I've only been here a day, but in other places it's certainly the rarest) But that's okay. Nobody expects you to be able to outwit everyone at everything, or even most people at most things. It's totally fine to get to a point where you say "Er, well, I don't know." Because that's when you have an opportunity to learn something new. If it's a topic of importance to you, and we're talking about fact, try to find out. Speak to others who might know or do research. If we're talking about an opinion or philosophy (let's say "should we eat animals") -- basically anything that doesn't have a patently true or false answer -- and you're on the fence, try to talk to people from both sides of the issue if you can. Debate also doesn't always have to change minds. Sometimes nothing at all changes; that happens. And most of the time you won't totally change someone's stance. But what you do get is a perspective of the other side and perhaps through the debate can refine your own thoughts and opinions a bit. They probably do, yes. That's why I don't think open-mindedness can ever be worse than closed-mindedness. Closed-minded people nearly always think they're in the right, but they may or may not actually be. They will never self-correct, because they just stick with what they've always done. An open-minded person can self-correct; they can learn about other views and opinions, or about other facts, and update their knowledge and philosophy based on those. It's always best to give yourself that chance to self-correct, because nobody is ever right about everything.If you're on the fence on something or if you have an inkling that a change in opinion is wrong, just get a third (or fourth or fifth or however many you want) opinion. Hear it from both sides. Also, you need to trust yourself at least a little. People are generally good, and your concern over doing wrong shows that you are too. Finally I think you're actually less likely to slip into a position you feel wrong about open-mindedly than closed. Let's take the racism thing for a while. A closed-minded person is a person who 'goes with the group'. If their ultimate trust is in their church, then they'll believe anything the church says, if it's in their community then they'll go along with the community's attitudes and so forth. So if there is a gradual change in the community toward racism, they'll be carried right along with it. However, an open-minded person actively thinks about all that for themselves. When I say 'consider all ideas' I mean when you run into people pushing racism you think, 'Wait, is this right?' Odds are you'd say no to that, correct? You don't have to dwell on it. Some things, like racism, really don't take much thinking about these days. If it takes you two seconds to decide, "no, racism is wrong" that's all the thinking you needed to do about it. You see, an open-minded thinker does consider (even if only for a moment with the least compatible ideas) everything, but a closed-minded thinker simply accepts everything from within his/her ultimate basis for opinion, and rejects anything that disagrees with it. It's about accepting opinions you believe in rather than what you're told to believe by others. This may mean giving more consideration to people you might not have considered listening to, but also may mean giving less to those you would normally hear out. After all, you can give consideration to who is worth giving consideration to as well. For example, no open-minded person will ever accuse you of being closed-minded for ignoring what Glenn Beck has to say.
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RabbitWho
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Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
Posts: 808
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 4, 2010 4:17:01 GMT -5
Maybe logic can be used, but not by me after a certain point, at a certain point I fall down. No matter how clever you are and no matter how good at arguing there will always be someone who is better. And if you let loosing an argument be what changes your mind then your mind will change very often. You can see this happening on this debate forum a lot, people running out of argument and feeling completely lost, or people (I assume older ones with more solidified golden rules) simply repeating what they already said again and again, or giving up and thinking you'll never understand, or realizing they've reached an end in their reasoning and having to think to themselves that they're right but they've no idea why. OR actually changing their minds. (Which I'm guessing is the rarest? I don't know, I've only been here a day, but in other places it's certainly the rarest) But that's okay. Nobody expects you to be able to outwit everyone at everything, or even most people at most things. It's totally fine to get to a point where you say "Er, well, I don't know." Because that's when you have an opportunity to learn something new. If it's a topic of importance to you, and we're talking about fact, try to find out. Speak to others who might know or do research. If we're talking about an opinion or philosophy (let's say "should we eat animals") -- basically anything that doesn't have a patently true or false answer -- and you're on the fence, try to talk to people from both sides of the issue if you can.Debate also doesn't always have to change minds. Sometimes nothing at all changes; that happens. And most of the time you won't totally change someone's stance. But what you do get is a perspective of the other side and perhaps through the debate can refine your own thoughts and opinions a bit.They probably do, yes. That's why I don't think open-mindedness can ever be worse than closed-mindedness. Closed-minded people nearly always think they're in the right, but they may or may not actually be. They will never self-correct, because they just stick with what they've always done. An open-minded person can self-correct; they can learn about other views and opinions, or about other facts, and update their knowledge and philosophy based on those. It's always best to give yourself that chance to self-correct, because nobody is ever right about everything.If you're on the fence on something or if you have an inkling that a change in opinion is wrong, just get a third (or fourth or fifth or however many you want) opinion. Hear it from both sides. Also, you need to trust yourself at least a little. People are generally good, and your concern over doing wrong shows that you are too. Finally I think you're actually less likely to slip into a position you feel wrong about open-mindedly than closed.Let's take the racism thing for a while. A closed-minded person is a person who 'goes with the group'. If their ultimate trust is in their church, then they'll believe anything the church says, if it's in their community then they'll go along with the community's attitudes and so forth. So if there is a gradual change in the community toward racism, they'll be carried right along with it. However, an open-minded person actively thinks about all that for themselves. When I say 'consider all ideas' I mean when you run into people pushing racism you think, 'Wait, is this right?' Odds are you'd say no to that, correct?
You don't have to dwell on it. Some things, like racism, really don't take much thinking about these days. If it takes you two seconds to decide, "no, racism is wrong" that's all the thinking you needed to do about it. You see, an open-minded thinker does consider (even if only for a moment with the least compatible ideas) everything, but a closed-minded thinker simply accepts everything from within his/her ultimate basis for opinion, and rejects anything that disagrees with it. It's about accepting opinions you believe in rather than what you're told to believe by others. This may mean giving more consideration to people you might not have considered listening to, but also may mean giving less to those you would normally hear out. After all, you can give consideration to who is worth giving consideration to as well. For example, no open-minded person will ever accuse you of being closed-minded for ignoring what Glenn Beck has to say. That was great, thanks so much for writing that! It's given me a whole new perspective. I've read it about 3 times because I want it all to stay in my head, and i've highlighted my favorite parts. I guess it's important for me to know as well that the world won't end if I'm not right about something, I've outgrown the phase where I always need to prove that I'm right, but i feel very insecure if I can't feel sure I'm right (or as right as can be expected given human limitations... oh that sounds arrogant, but it I am!), and I guess that's part of life and I should just accept it.
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kernoll
Meteor
Why so serious?
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Post by kernoll on Apr 4, 2010 5:35:48 GMT -5
Ive read most of the original post and if you are from where i think you let me say some defending argumnets of those so-called racist. Ive lived in part of town which was the main area which these people live in for a big part of my life. I´ve met some of them which were good and kind but most of them were really just using social support, didnt go to work and stole from people. This part of the city is not safe even at bright day and most of people you call racist had bad experiences whit this kind of people... And those who actually live proper life are treated with respect from my experiences...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2010 5:53:12 GMT -5
I think that the racism you describe is a from of racism which is inspired by a situation. Rather than thinking about who's racist, who's to blame, who's blahblahblah, people should be thinking about how to change those situations so there can be a non-racist community.
As for my golden rule: I always try to listen to various opinions. If someone tells me that the moon is flat and he has great great arguments, I would also want to hear from someone who has a different view and then from those two sets of arguments reason for myself which is more logical to me.
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kernoll
Meteor
Why so serious?
Posts: 63
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Post by kernoll on Apr 4, 2010 5:54:38 GMT -5
Yeah but people are trying to change the situatiuon but its no use because this group of people is happy as it is...
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