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Post by nickgreyden on Mar 25, 2010 19:22:07 GMT -5
*pause*
I love our tribe. It's conversations like this that help continue to make me a believer.
*resume thread*
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TheIslander
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From a Land Surrounded by Sea.
Posts: 403
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Post by TheIslander on Mar 28, 2010 18:48:27 GMT -5
I don't think anyone can answer that question, because tribe levels albeit being defined in the Logan video are still 'abstract' in the sense that you cannot measure tribes according to their attitude because there is no unit for attitude. We manage to calculate distance, time because it does not vary... it increases proportionately, creating other abstract quantities like velocity which can be in turn be broken down to distance and time. Here we are trying to calculate tribes in terms of attitude when attitude its self isn't something physical which we can calculate. I think we are taking the Tribal Level concept a bit too literally. I havn't read Logan's books but the impression I got was that the tribal levels are there for self-evaluation, somewhat creating tribal conscience. They are there to create a common aim for every tribe since after learning about the tribal levels every tribe member will aspire to create and be part of tribes which are level 5 tribes. Think of the tribal level thing as a parable, you cannot take it literally. It is there to improve your conscience as a tribal member.When Jesus told the parable of the good Samaritan, people didn't flock the streets to try see who is helping who - to see who is the good Samaritan. Neither did they pop their chests because they have helped others, they just learnt from the parable and kept it in mind for the rest of their life. The tribal level lecture and the good Samaritan parable should have the same type of effect on us. Don't apply it to the past, apply it to the future: more importantly YOUR future.well believe me when I say that I would very much like to believe what you are saying, not taking the tribal level concept literally allows for a more open standard of what is appropriate stage five behaviour, and discussion can be made on just what a stage five tribe is about. that however is NOT the impression i've gotten from dan, as well as others on this forum. which is what led me to ponder this seemingly contradictory doctrine in the tribal theory. I could totally be off though. if it turns out that what you are proposing is indeed the way that dan intends to handle the tribal process, than so be it. but it needs to be made known or else it will lead this tribe to a state of hypocrisy. as for measuring attitude, I don't know how finalized the tribal values are, but if/when they are, those would be the measuring criteria of an attitude. obviously a given person's attitude would still be unmeasureable for the most part but it would still be providing a road map for where you are meant to be headed. this is why tribal values are important. if you dont take the tribal levels from a literal stance, than an easy way to measure the level of a tribe is to compare how a tribe would ideally live and operate based on their values and how they currently live and operate. I am aware that people in the community have interepted it differently, but this is how I think it is.. and this is what Dan looks to be doing. Logan's Tribe concept is not about "decreasing world suck" as people have seen it OR making the world a better place.. That might be the point of the pogotribe but it definatley does not look like the point of Logan's theory or Dan's project. (to me) Logans tribe concept is about leading people, leading a community, leading masses to form a healthy organisation based on individual talents, interest and innovation. That is Logan's point and that is what I believe Dan is trying to do. Dan has, as he mentioned grouped people up into triads and he might later on try merge triads into bigger bits - to form a tighter community and organisation which can deal with projects based on innovation and collective talent. Bottom line: I don't think the project is about making the world a better place (as some people have seen it) it is about building an organisation.From my point of view, Dan is doing an good job with the triad project.. but I would have gone round it differently. I think it's an awesome experiment, and hope it succeeds. I'd like to hear Dan's views on this.
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Cortney
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[AWD:0c15]The Objectioner
The Bown
Posts: 885
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Post by Cortney on Mar 28, 2010 19:48:13 GMT -5
Alrighty, TheIslander, I can see you've thought this through but I'm going to have to correct you.
Dan has a HUGE vision for the PogoTribe, and yes it's trying to make the world a better place. You're not completely wrong though, because he's doing this BY building such a strong and talented community.
And the triads are much more than a project: they are the next step.
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TheIslander
Planet
From a Land Surrounded by Sea.
Posts: 403
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Post by TheIslander on Mar 28, 2010 20:02:58 GMT -5
Alrighty, TheIslander, I can see you've thought this through but I'm going to have to correct you. Dan has a HUGE vision for the PogoTribe, and yes it's trying to make the world a better place. You're not completely wrong though, because he's doing this BY building such a strong and talented community. And the triads are much more than a project: they are the next step. That is why I included the phrases 'what i think' and 'i believe' where Dan is involved, I didn't want to sound arrogant with what I was saying and am sure that what I said is not the complete truth. It is in fact Dan's project and I'm sure what he's trying to do is much clearer to you than it is to me. My point was that despite everyone trying to implement Logan's talk on a tribe:tribe basis we should think it more to be on a leader:tribe basis, the way it is working with dan:pogotribe. I probably gave the wrong impression by saying the triad stuff is not to make the world a better place - I meant to say that the tribal leadership (Logans talk) alone (as I perceived it) and not in realtion to the pogotribe is there to improve communities.
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Cortney
Star
[AWD:0c15]The Objectioner
The Bown
Posts: 885
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Post by Cortney on Mar 28, 2010 20:06:13 GMT -5
It's okay, I'm not attacking you, just correcting.
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Post by kelseyanneable on Mar 28, 2010 23:57:39 GMT -5
I believe Great can mean different things to different people. now lets say i love to work on computers and i am happy that i built a hard drive from scratch and i rejoice this is the greatest thing in the world someone else my think wow thats a nerdy thing to do and write it off
so yes i believe that the pogo tribe is the BEST THING EVER! but the person next to me my think other wise and i respect that completely ;D
So i agree with you completley ;D ;D ;D
It is not difficult to get away into retirement; and there live upon your own convictions; nor is it difficult to mix with men and follow their convictions; but to enter into the world; and there live firmly and fearlessly according to your own conscience; that is Christian greatness.
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Post by Andy Glover on Apr 2, 2010 6:25:11 GMT -5
John King, one of the co-authors of Tribal Leadership speaks to this in a talk that he and Dave Logan gave at Google in 2008. He proposes the idea that there is a clear indicator of what level someone else is operating on, which is the relationships that they have with other tribe members. Level one, "Life Sucks", would be a person who is completely alienated. Level two, "My Life Sucks" would be a person who finds themselves within a group but sees no possibility of contribution or participation. Level three, "I'm Great" points to someone who is in the group, and may be contributing and connecting, but is not bringing the group any closer together by forming triadic relationships between the different people within the group. Level four, "I'm great, and so are you" is where triads come into play. Not only are you forming partnerships with others in the group, but you also value the partnerships you hold with others so much that you choose to share these with the rest of the group, thereby forming triads. I really would encourage you to watch the talk by Dave Logan and John King, which I'll link to below. The first half of the talk is Dave Logan introducing the idea of tribal leadership, which I learned a lot from even though I thought I had a good understanding of the five stages. The second half is by John King (starting at timestamp 21:20, which I've tried to directly link to) where this idea is explained in much more clarity and detail. I hope this helps. DFTBA, -Andy www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBJvsRlYTBU#t=21m20s
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2010 13:03:15 GMT -5
^^I am going to watch this tonight as for the measurement of which level a tribe is at, I think that can be only done trough thorough self-evaluation. Therefore we need the tribal values, so we can see to what extent we have achieved those values. The intention of the PogoTribe in general and Dan in specific is (if I'm correct) to eventually make this world more awesome, so to do that, you obviously need to build some kind of organisation. When you have achieved such an organisation, you have the choice between keeping the awesome to yourself and keep improving the organisation or to spread the awesome things to the other people and organisations and thus creating a more awesome world. (though we need to keep in mind that there will always be different values and opinions and that therefore, there will never be complete unification of the human race, nor complete peace)
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TheIslander
Planet
From a Land Surrounded by Sea.
Posts: 403
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Post by TheIslander on Apr 2, 2010 14:18:39 GMT -5
John King, one of the co-authors of Tribal Leadership speaks to this in a talk that he and Dave Logan gave at Google in 2008. He proposes the idea that there is a clear indicator of what level someone else is operating on, which is the relationships that they have with other tribe members. Level one, "Life Sucks", would be a person who is completely alienated. Level two, "My Life Sucks" would be a person who finds themselves within a group but sees no possibility of contribution or participation. Level three, "I'm Great" points to someone who is in the group, and may be contributing and connecting, but is not bringing the group any closer together by forming triadic relationships between the different people within the group. Level four, "I'm great, and so are you" is where triads come into play. Not only are you forming partnerships with others in the group, but you also value the partnerships you hold with others so much that you choose to share these with the rest of the group, thereby forming triads. I really would encourage you to watch the talk by Dave Logan and John King, which I'll link to below. The first half of the talk is Dave Logan introducing the idea of tribal leadership, which I learned a lot from even though I thought I had a good understanding of the five stages. The second half is by John King (starting at timestamp 21:20, which I've tried to directly link to) where this idea is explained in much more clarity and detail. I hope this helps. DFTBA, -Andy www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBJvsRlYTBU#t=21m20snice find, kudos.
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