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Post by Lex on Mar 7, 2010 14:16:24 GMT -5
But the thing is, this opens itself to other arguments. One which I have been thinking about for quite some time: We have separate restrooms for wo/men, why? To prevent rape, I guess. But now since gay marriage comes into play, and being gay becomes socially and martially acceptable - that would mean that fem/fem harrasment and male/male harrasment could also occur? Well the same way I agree with gay marriage I think we'd have to ditch the separate bathrooms. I have no problem with it, what would you guys think? You know what? I've been thinking about this too. It goes the same for changing rooms as well. I don't think there's a real answer, though.
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Post by Jake on Mar 7, 2010 15:20:27 GMT -5
But the thing is, this opens itself to other arguments. One which I have been thinking about for quite some time: We have separate restrooms for wo/men, why? To prevent rape, I guess. But now since gay marriage comes into play, and being gay becomes socially and martially acceptable - that would mean that fem/fem harrasment and male/male harrasment could also occur? Well the same way I agree with gay marriage I think we'd have to ditch the separate bathrooms. I have no problem with it, what would you guys think? Although I'm sure rape and sexual harassment has to do with it, I believe the main reason for separate changing rooms is more to do with privacy and feeling secure and all that stuff. Otherwise it would be implying 5 year olds have different changing rooms to prevent rape. However, what you say raises a point because I can imagine some people highly against gays would be also highly against being in a changing room with a gay - even if it was nothing to do with being sexually harassed or raped, just simply being seen or the thought of being someone's "eye candy". Oh, and there's a wiki page on this too: southpoleofthemoon.com/wiki/index.php?title=Homosexuality
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Post by Lex on Mar 7, 2010 16:03:48 GMT -5
'Homophobia increases World Suck'
LMFAO!
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Post by sunsetonthesea on Mar 7, 2010 20:02:34 GMT -5
I feel like an idiot for coming in randomly like this, but I have my own opinion on this topic.
I feel that, if you happen to be gay, and you're actually IN LOVE with a person of the same sex and not just doing it for popularity or money, then, by all means, get married. There are some states in America that allow gay marriage. I support gay rights. I don't think they should be treated any differently than if they were straight. Just because their sexual preference is different doesn't mean they're a bad person.
This is where I disagree with my step-father. He thinks all gay people are scum and that they should go die in a hole. But the only gays he's met are drug addicts. It doesn't mean all of them are. I want to punch him the next time he judges people based on their sexual preference.
I have to also address religion. I am also a Christian like a lot of people in the world. But I do not think gay marriage is wrong. I do, however, kind of see why Christians think it's wrong to be gay. When God created the Earth, he made Adam and Eve. Man and woman. It's the way God wanted it, that's why Christians think it's sinful. But, I don't think God loves you any less just because you're gay. He loves everyone. Doesn't mean we're all going to heaven, but he does love everyone seeing as he created everyone and everything. And don't tell me I'm not a "real Christian" because I support gay rights. I'M not the one that's lesbian, I'm straight as a ruler. I just think that gays should have the same rights as straights and be treated equally.
On the government side of things, the government is NOT neutral when it comes to religion. Whoever is President at the time has a big impact, and if he happens to be Christian, than gay marriage is a no-go. This shows that the government constantly lies about their neutrality, which they do not have. But if I remember correctly, we are a free country. Why is it that, in a free country, two people that love each other are not allowed to legally commit to each other, just because they're of the same sex? It's not like they're doing anything horrible, like murdering or stealing. They just want to be together, what's the problem with that?
That's basically my opinion on this issue. And, just for the record, I've met a lot of gay guys and, guess what? They're a hell of a lot nicer than straight guys (at least the ones that are materialistic jerks). I think if people took the time to get to know these people and didn't judge them right away, they would find that they're a lot better than people make them out to be. But, of course, this world is not a perfect place...dammit...
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Post by Dimstow on Mar 7, 2010 23:00:07 GMT -5
Personally I think the issue of sharing restrooms with homosexuals really won't be that big of a deal, I mean, I really don't think it's an anti-rape issue so much a physical and psychological comfort issue. To be quest frank about it, using a urinal with women in the same room would be weird >_> I think because we share the same bodily functions (and procedures of use, if you will) with members of our of sex we will continue to share that space with members of the same sex regardless of sexuality. As for changing rooms I really don't see why those can't be unisex, anyway, do women have sexy lingerie pillow fights in their changing rooms? Cause all guys do in compare facial hair.
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seulf
Meteorite
Fortitudo, Clementia, Animus.
Posts: 2
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Post by seulf on Mar 7, 2010 23:09:25 GMT -5
I just want to add my 2 cents here.
I'm a Christian. I'm also gay. I'm also aware that this makes me lose credibility in some folks' eyes, which is fine.
When I came to realize my sexuality, I spent months hating myself. I thought God was punishing me for some horrible sin I had committed. Then I read through the Bible a few times to see just exactly how bad off I was.
Surprisingly, there are very few verses in the Bible that speak out against homosexuality. In fact, there are thousands of times more verses that talk about the sins of all mankind. I think I have more to worry about by being human than by being gay.
Also, most of the verses about it are in the Old Testament. Many of the laws and rules of the Old Testament were thrown out by Jesus. He didn't specify which ones. Who's to say the ones about being gay weren't thrown out?
And one last point: The verses all have two meanings or were made for specific purposes. Take Leviticus 18:22 for example. It was written at a time when the world was young and unpopulated. It reads, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.". Yes, the 'that is detestable' certainly would turn up noses, but it could very well have meant something else in its' original wording. I don't have time to look up the other ones right now, but if I remember correctly, the New Testament verses are about homosexual pedophilia and bisexual orgies in church...
edit: So what i'm basically saying is that using the Christian 'it's sinful' argument is flawed and isn't strong enough to merit denying a huge portion of loyal, loving, committed individuals basic civil rights.
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Post by pint07 on Mar 7, 2010 23:43:20 GMT -5
I don't know why, but God says so, so I believe it. *waits for yelling* A bit late on this response... It's perfectly fine if you believe it, but it is ethically WRONG and unconstitutional for the government to pass laws preventing it because: 1) Religious views (and religious views are the ONLY solid argument against gay marriage) cannot be applied as grounds for discrimination on one group of people from an entire population, as not all people share the same religious views. 2) If the government enacts a law on grounds of a particular religion's views, it is supporting the establishment of that religion, because it is favoring one religion over another (or over no religion at all).
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Post by intothemoooon on Mar 8, 2010 0:34:04 GMT -5
I don't know why, but God says so, so I believe it. *waits for yelling* God also, in the same section of the Bible where He says "not to be gay" (the "a man shalt not lay with another man" part) says that you shall not eat shrimp and you should sell your daughter if you are offered a fair price. It's not fair to pick and choose which commandment to enforce. It's really just NOT FAIR. And anyway, even if a person believes that being gay or having gay sex is sinful, it's NOT that person's job to pass judgement on gay people. Judgment is reserved as the right of the Lord, and Him alone. We are meant to treat everyone with respect, exactly as we would want to be treated. It's His job to pass judgement on the actions of each and every person and deal with them accordingly. God is supposed to be almighty. Why would we think he needs our help to do what He has clearly stated is a job reserved for only Him? To assume that God wants us to judge and persecute people in His place, and by doing so make the lives other human beings less full in any way, is to be extremely naive and to forsake the foundation of Christianity. That said, like any cultural opinion that has no universally moral basis (cultural opinions with universally moral bases include "murder is wrong" and "incest is bad"), religious beliefs have no place in government. We should work toward making this truth a reality.
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Post by cadetpewpew on Mar 8, 2010 2:39:56 GMT -5
I'm pro,because I want to marry the woman,as well as the man I love one day. It doesn't really matter,love has no boundaries.If I fall in love with a woman,I want to be able to marry her and create a family together,it's as simple as that. Both my parents are homophobic to some extent or another and I've never been raised to respect or support gay rights,but I think that's exactly what my parents wanted me to do-establish my own opinion,be it based on personal experience or not. All in all,I'm not religious,at all and I don't think that anyone can tell us who to love and how to love them,not even the Bible,the Koran or whatever.
And even with my humble opinion,I still can't change anything about the way people see me in my country. Because I live in one of the most homophobic countries ever and some people would wear my scalp around as a belt buckle if they found out I was even bisexual,let alone gay.
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Post by fishsticks on Mar 8, 2010 14:31:13 GMT -5
Now, I don't have anything against gays. But personally I don't think the legal definition of marriage should apply to homosexual couples. I am religious and there is no denying that homosexuality is something that some people will never get used to. Although I am religious, I have nothing against homosexuality, I just think the term marriage should be reserved for heterosexual couples.
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Post by Jake on Mar 8, 2010 15:06:56 GMT -5
I'm a Christian. I'm also gay. I'm also aware that this makes me lose credibility in some folks' eyes, which is fine. I found what you said there very interesting (although I've removed a lot of what you said in this quote to shorten it - so you'll need to go up to see exactly what seulf said). But I do believe that many Christians do seem to take what the Bible says about homosexuality in the wrong way. One particular thing is the Bible saying (obviously paraphrased) "Do not be homosexual", but then Christians somehow making the conclusion that this also means "Do not accept or understand homosexuals". And as you say, there's a lot of things to suggest that being homosexual isn't all that bad in terms of defying your religion. People seem to take Leviticus 18:22 so seriously, and then forget about many other parts of Leviticus (eg. don't eat seafood without scales/no tattoos/no piercings etc.). One thing that I really don't like it when people seem to think that being homosexual is a choice, that people can easily just "opt in"or "opt out" of. I know plenty of people that quite literally say "It's an choice you have to make, but they make the sinful one." This is coming from an athiest - so apologies to any christians if I've got my facts wrong.
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Post by zAkAtAk on Mar 8, 2010 16:42:19 GMT -5
I was talking about this topic with someone in my class. I told him I was gay and he said he was against gay marriage.
His reasoning: He wanted marriage to be between a man and a woman. He hopes that if we keep gays from marrying, they will decide to be straight and marry a girl instead.
I facepalmed so hard I think I might have left a permanent mark on my forehead.
edit: I can't spell.
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Post by Lex on Mar 8, 2010 16:45:56 GMT -5
I was talking about this topic with someone in my class. I told him I was gay and he said he was against gay marriage. His reasoning: He wanted marriage to be between a man and a woman. He hopes that if we keep gay from marrying, they will decide to be straight and marry a girl instead. I facepalmed so hard I think I might have left a permanent mark on my forehead. That. Is. Absurd. I just facepalmed so hard it might have left a permanent mark on my forehead.
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Post by Ryan on Mar 8, 2010 17:23:52 GMT -5
I was talking about this topic with someone in my class. I told him I was gay and he said he was against gay marriage. His reasoning: He wanted marriage to be between a man and a woman. He hopes that if we keep gays from marrying, they will decide to be straight and marry a girl instead. What your classmate said brings up huge meaning. "Aphorism Number 88 \ If it is misunderstood, then there is reason to fear it. Most things that instill fear, do so only because the parts we do not understand scare us. " - Ryan Walker The probable reason that there is so much opposition to gay marriage is because people misunderstand homosexuality. If you are not a homosexual, you cannot understand what it is like to be homosexual. That is a fact... So it is understandable that people who don't want to know more, are unwilling to accept those who are homosexual. Think of Galileo, he was punished because nobody understood his ideas, Socrates was sentenced to death because people were afraid of him, people who believe in Wicca were burned at the stake. All of the ideas of these people/groups are now no longer feared because they are more understood. In time I think the same will happen with homosexuality. I have a feeling that someone might bring up the point that homosexuality has been around for a lot longer than any of those things, and is still feared and misunderstood. To pre-address this issue, I'd like to point out, that until very recently, homosexuality wasn't put under the limelight. For many years homosexuals have lived underground (sometimes literally) to avoid people looking upon them as doing wrongful acts. And while openness about one's sexuality is a freeing feeling, many people were content with living their lives with the one they loved, be it same sex or opposite. The fight for civil liberties of gay unions is relatively recent since until recently there was not enough support to even pose a chance or give a decent civil fight for it. The fact that this debate is even running, and running so strongly both in the government and on this forum, means that we're at least taking steps in the right direction as a society to understand homosexuality so that it can at some point be accepted.
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Post by dandelions8910 on Mar 8, 2010 20:09:33 GMT -5
If you are not a homosexual, you cannot understand what it is like to be homosexual. It may just be me, but how different is it to be homosexual? Of course, there is all the hate and judgement and confusion going on, but underneath, it's just people loving people, right? So if a person is a person is a person(like our constitution says far more eloquently), what right does the government have over their marriages? I feel like the debate shouldn't have anything to do with whether it's "right" or "wrong" because everyone will have their opinions, but whether there is any grounds for government control. There isn't. Plain and simple.
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Post by Ryan on Mar 8, 2010 22:57:53 GMT -5
When you put it like that dandelions, there is no difference, and so I say WIN and that was plenty eloquent
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Post by Dimstow on Mar 9, 2010 0:28:25 GMT -5
I absolutely agree, the issue isn't whether homosexuality is right, wrong, good, bad, FTW, kinda icky, it just plain doesn't matter.
The issue is whether the Government has the right to tell people what choices they can make
and frankly, they don't have the right too. at least not from where I'm sitting
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Post by RandiKthxxx on Mar 9, 2010 15:14:48 GMT -5
I thought that being gay wasn't the sin. I thought that gay sex was what considered an abomination.
And even so, "all sins count the same". That's why they crucified the thief with Jesus, right?
So then if all sins are equal, then why is there so much animosity towards gays? They're not even hurting anyone. If any group should be condemned shouldn't it be like murderers or pedophiles, or something?
I just don't get it.
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Post by Lex on Mar 9, 2010 16:49:19 GMT -5
I thought that being gay wasn't the sin. I thought that gay sex was what considered an abomination. And even so, "all sins count the same". That's why they crucified the thief with Jesus, right? So then if all sins are equal, then why is there so much animosity towards gays? They're not even hurting anyone. If any group should be condemned shouldn't it be like murderers or pedophiles, or something? I just don't get it. Because that's just it; all sins count the same. To a lot of Christians, being gay is just about as bad as being a murderer.
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Post by RandiKthxxx on Mar 9, 2010 16:51:51 GMT -5
But there's so much more hate towards gays.
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