What bothers me about Christianity.

[fletcherblack]

What really grinds my gears about a number of religions is that it teaches children that the only purpose of our lives is auditioning for our next one. It teaches us to be good out of fear of punishment, instead of being good because we know it's right. How Christians have gotten away with scaring people into believing for 2000 years, and for jewish people however long before that, I'll never understand. The bible is a horrid cursed thing, there are so many examples of this, but the only ones YOU hear are the pretty little passages about love that your pastor or priest picks for you to hear on Sunday's. If you ever took the time to actually read the bible, or research a few of the less frilly frolicking passages, you'd see that the bible is a horrible vicious place, where rape is ok, you can beat your slaves as long as they don't die within two days, and you're are perfectly within the law of the bible to kill your children if they talk back to you, the smart little bastards. What's your opinion on this Pogo Tribe?

[krzych32]

-The religion is a representation of the society one is living in.

You have to remember 2 things.

1. The world is an ever changing place. What was okey a week ago may not be okey two weeks down the read. You think that you are so smart, just because you have ideas like "slavery is bad" and "child abuse is wrong", but you can't put yourself in a different perspective, in a different time period, and that for me is being closed minded.

2. Also, stop thinking that every Christian is stupid and closed minded. WE don't just hear the " pretty little passages" and I dissagree with my priest most of the time. I am not scared of hell, in fact, I don't think that there is such a place, at least not the way you think of it. (The idea of hell how we know it did not came onto the scene till "dante's inferno" was written). You think that even the most religious of us don't go to sleep questioning the existance God himself?

[koralth]

I agree, fletcher, but only in regards to literalists and fundamentalists. Like krzych points out, much of religion evolves, depending on the denomination.

Krzych, I think you have to read past the generalizations and realize he's not talking about you. Christianity is such a diverse phenomenon that to strictly define who one is talking about is an exceedingly difficult thing to do! I've argued religion enough to know there are PLENTY of people out there who DO worship out of a fear of hell, and encourage me to act the same way! There are many who blindly follow their pastor or priest out of fear that they'll be WRONG about their philosophy and so they aren't personally responsible for their actions, "This is what the LORD wants!".

I see your point, friend, I truly do, but to specify every time, "Christians who feel this, this, and this way" rather than simply saying "Christians" is time consuming, difficult, and... a waste of our time, since you know that you don't behave in the specified manners. I seldom argue with the Christian who, when discussing their problems with atheists, specify "atheists with this philosophy, this philosophy, and THIS philosophy are dumb!" No, they cut to the chase and say, "Atheists are wrong and here's why" regardless of the falsities perpetrated by the generalization. It doesn't bother me any. Now, maybe I'm wrong about Fletcher, maybe he feels that EVERY christian is a brainwashed zombie, but since he knows there are Christians here on the pogotribe... Well, I sort of have to assume he's talking about a generalized norm, rather than EVERY CHRISTIAN that ever walked the planet.

[mashuga31]

Lemme put one thing down there: i believe in God. I have my own physical proof that he exists and that's good enough for me. It may be just a coincidence what happened but that's like a 1/7000 chance anyway.

Lemme put down something else. I am against all churches (not religion) and I am inevitably against the bible. It constantly contradicts itself and contradicts my own personal beliefs.

krzych32
I'd like to say that you are a number of things, but I'd probably be wrong (In other words despite what you said I still think that your probably a good person, your just trying to make a point.) I disagree with that point though. It would be close minded to say that Tacos are bad even though you've never tried them would be closed minded. However to refuse to put yourself in the shoes of someone as hateful as sin itself is not close minded. Seeing things from their point of view automatically makes it ok in your mind, at least until you revert back to yourself. To think for one second that harming another human being for any reason is ok should be a crime worse than murder. I do indeed hate those who hate (Yes hate, contradictory atm but let me go more into detail). I can't say that I hate the fact that they hate because I don't hate it when someone hates someone else. It's the reasoning. Those who just want to cause others pain, ruin their day, or otherwise be a prick should be sent to a penitentiary. They're a danger to the better evolution of society (That should be law :3). The people who hate that person are right to hate because they have done them wrong. The only reason that it cannot be forgiven is because they will do it again, to intentionally hurt you. People like this should cluster together and live on a small island far away cause nobody wants to deal with them.

If you were indeed trying to prove a point you should have picked better examples. If not well then I have to say that I disagree with every word in that sentence. If you actually believe that slavery is alright because of the times or same with child abuse then go ahead and read the following. If not just leave off here.

Empathizing with bad people is in turn, a bad idea. And to say "You think your so smart because you have these ideas," isn't a good argument, it's an insult. Which is bad =P. Now think for a second. Empathize with the slave or the child. You're being whipped daily, maybe thirty times a day. Unimaginable pain for no reason. The question "why?" cannot be answered. For the child, their ideas are put down. Then they are beaten for disagreeing with the parents. Sure they may say things that P.O. you but that doesn't give you the right to hit them. They don't know how to explain their point of view or why they don't want to do certain things, they can just say that they don't want to and when you press them they're going to get a bit frustrated and get mad or cry. So you beat them. Which makes them angrier or cry more. Answer 'this' question: wtf is wrong with that picture??

Once again, if you did read that and you were just trying to make the point: "It was okay back then, that made it right" (Which by the way is a very bad point. Just because something is ok doesn't mean it's right.) Then accept my apology... although if you didn't read it then your good. Make sense?

Closing statement:
*clears throat*

The Bible is half-way morally wrong and churches don't base themselves on morals because they 'are' close minded and follow a text rather than what 'they' personally believe.

Here's what I propose. Don't align yourself with a 'specific' religion unless you personally believe in every last thing that religion say - to the dot. If you don't, just write undefined where it asks. If they ask you about it explain it. I won't go into what I believe here (Not relevant, I would if it was lol, I like talking =P), so if you wanna know PM me. Other than that have a great day everyone.

[low]

Judaism has actually never emphasized the afterlife in the way Christianity has. Jews don't believe in Hell, nor is their Heaven particularly important. Jewish tradition especially emphasizes improving the current world.

[kawerty]

Of all things i have learnt about the 'Religion' that it speaks of, is that it is nothing more than tribes created,Each tribe have a more or less similar seet of rules it is governed by,buy yet,these tribesmen don't wish to reconise that it is actually the same.

Why i said it,Taoism and Buddhism aside(These are a totally different concept of what i will be speaking of now), These tribes mainly Islam(And Muslim),Christianity,Catholics,Judaism. all are governed by a set of rules,which is written in a book and the Book is written by the God Himself. Also,These Gods have a Specific 'Messenger' recorded. These then led to debates on which is the Alpha-Religion.

Also,I as Atheist myself,somehow feel that there is no need to acknowledge/disprove of religion,bearing in mind that these Religions only 'cater' to people of specific needs. People who are willing to believe,who can believe in what they have Faith on.
That said,i want you bear in mind that , No matter who you are,what you believe in or what is the colour of your skin ; We are all no much different or superior to one another.
If religion is not the ''thing' for you, so be it.

It is much like food ; Come prefer Olives,yet some Loathes them.However,no one needs to know why,or should i say : No one knows why. You can say its the taste,the appearance,yet you can't truly point down on the sole factor of why you dislike it. Its just the same for religion. If you like it,go on and eat it,if you dislike it,then don't! No use hating on it for it is YOUR OWN OPINION of it. Just keep in mind of the 'Olive Theory' and it'll not bother you,at all .

[FranticProdigy]

Christianity is not only illogical, but its destructive and corrosive towards the progression of society. People who realize this is their only lives will live it to the fullest, and dont say to theirselves that they will do it in the next life. I feel bad for some christians in that sense, but it was their choice.

[koralth]

Oh, I totally agree, kawerty! I totally respect that some need religion while others do not. I understand that, at the VERY least it provides psychological comfort to those who adhere to these beliefs, and at the very most provides spiritual comfort and salvation.

However, some religious sects see fit to politicize their religion, to come at me and tell me that I should believe based on Pascal's wager, the name of which they often are unfamiliar with, and lastly some see fit to debate me simply for the sake of debate. I take issue with the former two, and enjoy conversations with the latter category. When it comes down to it, though, I will debate them with every resource at my disposal, be it addressing the secular nature of my country, be it calling into question doctrines/positions of their religion, or even the nature of God himself should the issue become relevant to discourse. I can expound on religion a great deal having studied it for many years. While I don't have a personal need to disprove God, I enjoy challenging myself, and enjoy the company of others who want to be challenged.

Unlike your analogy, though, religion can call into question human rights issues. Olives... Well, I suppose it could be - it's a matter of opinion, based on exactly how much you dislike olives. But there are no state laws concerning whether or not an olive hater can stand jury or hold public office. Though it's against the stipulation of the constitution, there ARE state and local laws concerning whether residents of certain areas can stand jury or hold public office if they are atheists. There has yet to be a tantalizing argument as to why gays can't be married in a civil court that doesn't involve religion. I stand against the politicization of religion, and will continue to do so. I find the evangelical Jesus camps to be abhorrent, because the children in those conditions are indoctrinated religiously and politically at an early age and not given a chance to form their own opinions.

I sympathize with your message, and I agree on the whole. There are just many issues that are not addressed when you take a COMPLETELY live and let live approach to it, much as I would love to abide by such a pacifistic route.

[krzych32]

@mashuga31, I see where you are coming from with your argument. I am not saying that slavery or anything like that is fine by my standarts. What I am saying is that we should not criticize our ancestors for what they did, we were never in their shoes, we did not have to make those decisions. I just know that if I would live at a different time period my priorities would be different then they are today. As we are judging them, future gererations will judge us, and ask themselves "how could those people see such evil and accept it?"

Let me not explain my quote:
"You think your so smart because you have these ideas,"
I am not trying to insult anyone here, this is just my take on
“History is written by the victors.”
-Winstone Churchill
What I am saying is that those idea's are not really our own, we were not born with them, we did not think of them by our own free mind. They were forced upon us, the "victors" are the ones to make up the rules, and only a very free and open minded society can go beyond that. You may dissagree with me on that, but just ask yourself, when you were in a 5rd grade and were asked to do a project about slavery (sorry for constantly using the same example, it's not just about that, but I can't think of anything different at this moment), weren't you expected to take a certain side, how would your teacher react if your project outlined the benefits of such society? You want another example? Why do we praise democracy so much? Because we live in one, and every day when you go to school and praise the American flag, you are being tought a lesson "democracy good, any other form of a govermant bad", and you may think that you do that of your own free will, but its something you were doing since the 1st grade, so where is the free will in that.

[mashuga31]

Apr 21, 2010 15:21:52 GMT -5 krzych32 said:

@mashuga31, I see where you are coming from with your argument. I am not saying that slavery or anything like that is fine by my standarts. What I am saying is that we should not criticize our ancestors for what they did, we were never in their shoes, we did not have to make those decisions. I just know that if I would live at a different time period my priorities would be different then they are today. As we are judging them, future gererations will judge us, and ask themselves "how could those people see such evil and accept it?"

Let me not explain my quote:
"You think your so smart because you have these ideas,"
I am not trying to insult anyone here, this is just my take on
“History is written by the victors.”
-Winstone Churchill
What I am saying is that those idea's are not really our own, we were not born with them, we did not think of them by our own free mind. They were forced upon us, the "victors" are the ones to make up the rules, and only a very free and open minded society can go beyond that. You may dissagree with me on that, but just ask yourself, when you were in a 5rd grade and were asked to do a project about slavery (sorry for constantly using the same example, it's not just about that, but I can't think of anything different at this moment), weren't you expected to take a certain side, how would your teacher react if your project outlined the benefits of such society? You want another example? Why do we praise democracy so much? Because we live in one, and every day when you go to school and praise the American flag, you are being tought a lesson "democracy good, any other form of a govermant bad", and you may think that you do that of your own free will, but its something you were doing since the 1st grade, so where is the free will in that.

I like you more simply for this part V

Apr 21, 2010 15:21:52 GMT -5 krzych32 said:

"how could those people see such evil and accept it?"

Anyway, I have a few things I'd like to share. Slavery is never put on the spotlight as 'bad' in my school. They explain what happened to the slaves, how they got to America, and how much people cared about them. Whether it's good or bad is up to the class to decide, which unanimously decides that it is.

As for praising America, well not everyone has to say the pledge. They just have to stand up with everyone else. I, personally think democracy is a corrupt, bad idea, therefore I altered the pledge of allegiance to depict the fall of America and say that every morning. No one has told me I couldn't, and nobody cares. So what If i'm unpatriotic, who want's to be patriotic when all that leads down that road is fighting and death? America should change. Maybe there will be a day when I can call myself a patriot again.

[FranticProdigy]

Apr 21, 2010 19:33:49 GMT -5 @mashuga31 said:

Apr 21, 2010 15:21:52 GMT -5 krzych32 said:

@mashuga31, I see where you are coming from with your argument. I am not saying that slavery or anything like that is fine by my standarts. What I am saying is that we should not criticize our ancestors for what they did, we were never in their shoes, we did not have to make those decisions. I just know that if I would live at a different time period my priorities would be different then they are today. As we are judging them, future gererations will judge us, and ask themselves "how could those people see such evil and accept it?"

Let me not explain my quote:
"You think your so smart because you have these ideas,"
I am not trying to insult anyone here, this is just my take on
“History is written by the victors.”
-Winstone Churchill
What I am saying is that those idea's are not really our own, we were not born with them, we did not think of them by our own free mind. They were forced upon us, the "victors" are the ones to make up the rules, and only a very free and open minded society can go beyond that. You may dissagree with me on that, but just ask yourself, when you were in a 5rd grade and were asked to do a project about slavery (sorry for constantly using the same example, it's not just about that, but I can't think of anything different at this moment), weren't you expected to take a certain side, how would your teacher react if your project outlined the benefits of such society? You want another example? Why do we praise democracy so much? Because we live in one, and every day when you go to school and praise the American flag, you are being tought a lesson "democracy good, any other form of a govermant bad", and you may think that you do that of your own free will, but its something you were doing since the 1st grade, so where is the free will in that.

I like you more simply for this part V

Apr 21, 2010 15:21:52 GMT -5 krzych32 said:

"how could those people see such evil and accept it?"

Anyway, I have a few things I'd like to share. Slavery is never put on the spotlight as 'bad' in my school. They explain what happened to the slaves, how they got to America, and how much people cared about them. Whether it's good or bad is up to the class to decide, which unanimously decides that it is.

As for praising America, well not everyone has to say the pledge. They just have to stand up with everyone else. I, personally think democracy is a corrupt, bad idea, therefore I altered the pledge of allegiance to depict the fall of America and say that every morning. No one has told me I couldn't, and nobody cares. So what If i'm unpatriotic, who want's to be patriotic when all that leads down that road is fighting and death? America should change. Maybe there will be a day when I can call myself a patriot again.

People did not care for slaves like you said they did, people looked at them as just another tool, a wheelbarrow, a shovel, a saw. Its a sick thought process, but its what they thought. What would your alternative to democracy be? Enlighten me. The reason nobody told you you couldn't is probably first and fore most nobody cares, but even if they did they couldn't stop you. What revolution would you like to fight for? I dont understand.

[mashuga31]

You do realize that I said "How much people care about them" and you do realize that the answer to that statement can be none at all and that there were indeed not cared about. I'm sure you just misinterpreted. The alternative to democracy is anarchy. People working together for a common goal, following good morals instead of strange ass laws like we have in Nevada. seriously no camels on the highways? Why the eff not? And that's my point exactly. They don't care which makes it easier for life to go on. Think outside the box.

[mashuga31]

Apr 21, 2010 14:00:23 GMT -5 FranticProdigy said:

Christianity is not only illogical, but its destructive and corrosive towards the progression of society. People who realize this is their only lives will live it to the fullest, and dont say to theirselves that they will do it in the next life. I feel bad for some christians in that sense, but it was their choice.

I just re-read this statement and agree ten fold, only I think that it is all religions that cause this problem. Note: not religious beliefs, but just the religions in general. Having beliefs won't increase world suck but teaching people something out of a 10,000 year old book will. Times have changed. God rawx in my opinion. He's loving and caring (Not these are my own personal beliefs. Contradict them if you wish, I just won't care what you think. Still glad to see that you have an opinion though that is 'always' good.) and accepts all that truly believe into heaven. I'm sure he wouldn't care about the bible... after all it's just a great big wall of text. I looked at that and said Due to my laziness and short attention span, I have decided not to read your lengthy post.. Revelations is bullhonkey.

[FranticProdigy]

Apr 22, 2010 22:33:22 GMT -5 @mashuga31 said:

You do realize that I said "How much people care about them" and you do realize that the answer to that statement can be none at all and that there were indeed not cared about. I'm sure you just misinterpreted. The alternative to democracy is anarchy. People working together for a common goal, following good morals instead of strange ass laws like we have in Nevada. seriously no camels on the highways? Why the eff not? And that's my point exactly. They don't care which makes it easier for life to go on. Think outside the box.

Anarchy doesn't work. Its been tried before.
Without government, money is worthless.
Public services will only be available to the rich.
Without the government, there is nobody to protect rights.
How will we stop global warming?
The government is good for the economy.

It has been tried in many countries
Anarchism is communism, communism is fascism, fascism doesn't work, just ask the union of soviet socialist republics.

[FranticProdigy]

Apr 22, 2010 22:37:39 GMT -5 @mashuga31 said:

Apr 21, 2010 14:00:23 GMT -5 FranticProdigy said:

Christianity is not only illogical, but its destructive and corrosive towards the progression of society. People who realize this is their only lives will live it to the fullest, and dont say to theirselves that they will do it in the next life. I feel bad for some christians in that sense, but it was their choice.

I just re-read this statement and agree ten fold, only I think that it is all religions that cause this problem. Note: not religious beliefs, but just the religions in general. Having beliefs won't increase world suck but teaching people something out of a 10,000 year old book will. Times have changed. God rawx in my opinion. He's loving and caring (Not these are my own personal beliefs. Contradict them if you wish, I just won't care what you think. Still glad to see that you have an opinion though that is 'always' good.) and accepts all that truly believe into heaven. I'm sure he wouldn't care about the bible... after all it's just a great big wall of text. I looked at that and said Due to my laziness and short attention span, I have decided not to read your lengthy post.. Revelations is bullhonkey.

Good as in... killing more people in the bible than satan did?

[AkeR]

Apr 21, 2010 15:21:52 GMT -5 krzych32 said:

@mashuga31, I see where you are coming from with your argument. I am not saying that slavery or anything like that is fine by my standarts. What I am saying is that we should not criticize our ancestors for what they did, we were never in their shoes, we did not have to make those decisions. I just know that if I would live at a different time period my priorities would be different then they are today. As we are judging them, future gererations will judge us, and ask themselves "how could those people see such evil and accept it?"

i refuse to believe that if we could redo it as we are now, we would simply stand by in those times. theres a song by the flobots called anne braden, its about how a woman fought against the inequality between black and white people.



i havent read all of this thread, just skimmed the first few posts so i appologize if i repeat anyones views or whatever

basically i figure that anything dogmatic is bad. i am a guy that needs to see the evidence to believe it
religion is one of those things. its a personal flaw, i admit, but when told by a friend or anyone really that they are christian my opinion of them is instantly ruined. its not that i have a problem with people believing in god, its just that it seems so... zombie-like. theres no consideration for their own beliefs. most of these people i know have had it taught to them since birth and i understand why they may not question it but there are such massive holes in the philosophy of christianity. if you believe in god, that is fine with me. ive often wished god existed, there have been many moments in my life where ive asked "why? surely this cant be bad luck" and ive even prayed in the past, although ive never understood the point. assuming god does exist, and he/she has the capacity to form a universe and produce life and consciousness, i find it flawed that people suffer daily.

god may very well exist. but i dont believe christianity is true. its much more likely that the bible and christianity as a whole was just created to oppress the people.

[swan]

Apr 22, 2010 22:37:39 GMT -5 @mashuga31 said:

Apr 21, 2010 14:00:23 GMT -5 FranticProdigy said:

Christianity is not only illogical, but its destructive and corrosive towards the progression of society. People who realize this is their only lives will live it to the fullest, and dont say to theirselves that they will do it in the next life. I feel bad for some christians in that sense, but it was their choice.

I just re-read this statement and agree ten fold, only I think that it is all religions that cause this problem. Note: not religious beliefs, but just the religions in general.

I think some people need religion, whether it is because of an unwillingness to think for themselves or because they simply need to believe that there is an intrinsic purpose in life; While others are religious simply because they choose to be. Either way simply being religious doesn't mean that one cannot live a good life, and being an atheist/agnostic doesn't necessarily mean that a person is gonna "live life to the fullest" anyway. I think both of you are right in that religion often endorses what is known as Asceticism, but people can certainly be religious and live a fulfilling life.

The think the "good life" is one of passion and devotion to the individual and what the individual values, which gives people the feeling of fulfillment. Now this could be called "living life to the fullest" but one can be passionate about Christianity and be completely fulfilled by it and never act in a way that an atheist might call "living life to the fullest." Faith in any religion is at its most justifiable when the individual is passionate and derives fulfillment from that religion (and this applies to all other actions). Now not all Christians do this, and there are some who are only Christians out of fear of there not being an afterlife, or out of societal pressure, or they simply pay lip-service to their church/organization. This is faith at its least justifiable since the individual devotes time to something they are not truly passionate about (and again this applies to all other actions). Getting the most out of life is about being passionate about something and it can be anything but it is up to the individual to decide what that is.

[Trey]

Lol, this thread is going to turn Christians into Atheists xD

[krzych32]

AkeR, tell me, after taking out all of the knowledge and ideologies that we have today, what is the difference between us and the ones that were here before us?

[AkeR]

@krzych, we have knowledge, granted, and that does make a huge difference to our view on the other people of the world. but i still find it hard to believe that you would stand idley by while a slave is beaten and crying