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Jun 20, 2010 10:53:37 GMT -5
Post by Ricky on Jun 20, 2010 10:53:37 GMT -5
666 is the number of the "beast". A reference to the book of revelations. Still it is believed that when written it was actually meant to symbolize Roman Emperor Nero (whose name, written in Aramaic, can be valued at 666, using the Hebrew numerology of gematria)
So, no it isn't the name of "devil or of bad luck". Still, I am also an atheist. So all I know, its mostly for sociological studies. ;D
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earth
Moon
the awesome
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Jun 20, 2010 11:02:30 GMT -5
Post by earth on Jun 20, 2010 11:02:30 GMT -5
oh wow. cool didnt know that.
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Jun 20, 2010 11:18:31 GMT -5
Post by Lex on Jun 20, 2010 11:18:31 GMT -5
666 is the number of the "beast". A reference to the book of revelations. Still it is believed that when written it was actually meant to symbolize Roman Emperor Nero (whose name, written in Aramaic, can be valued at 666, using the Hebrew numerology of gematria) So, no it isn't the name of "devil or of bad luck". Still, I am also an atheist. So all I know, its mostly for sociological studies. ;D Even then, some versions say 616 depending on translations. It just goes to show you how accurate translating the Bible is. A whole 50 numbers off!
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earth
Moon
the awesome
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Jun 20, 2010 11:58:30 GMT -5
Post by earth on Jun 20, 2010 11:58:30 GMT -5
you mean a digit? cos it would have to be 665 for it to be one number off
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Jun 20, 2010 15:11:29 GMT -5
Post by Benyamin on Jun 20, 2010 15:11:29 GMT -5
Science and reason are not incompatable with believing Jesus rose from the dead to save you from your sins. Telling us that Jesus died for our sins isn't going to get you anywhere in your sneaky guilt-tripping. Many of us think the concept of sin is, frankly, bullshit. So don't go telling us that he saved us from our sins, because there's NO SUCH THING. well, one definition of sin is a transgression of a moral law. moral laws exist people dont follow them = sin
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Jun 20, 2010 15:27:13 GMT -5
Post by Lex on Jun 20, 2010 15:27:13 GMT -5
Telling us that Jesus died for our sins isn't going to get you anywhere in your sneaky guilt-tripping. Many of us think the concept of sin is, frankly, bullshit. So don't go telling us that he saved us from our sins, because there's NO SUCH THING. well, one definition of sin is a transgression of a moral law. moral laws exist people dont follow them = sin Sin is a transgression of a moral law in a religious context and not all religions use the concept of sin.
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Jun 26, 2010 14:28:26 GMT -5
Post by tehincoreuptable on Jun 26, 2010 14:28:26 GMT -5
Personally, I'm not a Christian because three main things: 1. The whole "YOU ARE BORN EVIL AND NEED TO REPENT REPENT REPENT!" 2. The whole, "NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO YOU WILL BE FORGIVEN" 3. The whole rest of the religion.
I converted to Judaism because it made more sense to me. It's pretty much, "Be a good person and you won't suffer eternally" instead of "Do whatever the balls you want, ask for forgiveness, and you won't suffer eternally".
This said, I'm not denying Jesus. Well, I am. Sort of. I think he was a really great guy, but that he wasn't the son of G-d. I follow his example, but I don't pray to him.
Essentially, I make up my own religious philosophies. I call it, "Convenia-deism" As in Convenience-G-d, meaning "Worship however is more convenient for you". If you like pork, don't be Jewish. If you believe in Jesus, be a Christian. Pretty much saying that G-d doesn't care how you worship, as long as you just acknowledge His awesomeness, try to be a good person, and say "thanks for, y'know, creating everything and all" It also says that G-d isn't going to punish you for not worshipping the "right" religion (if there is a designated accurate one) if you live in a country where that religion isn't practiced. For instance, if Islam has the most accurate portrayal of G-d, then G-d shouldn't punish you if you live in a country where Islam isn't practiced often. If the Aboriginal religion of the Australian natives is most accurate, why would G-d punish you if you live in, say, England and have no relationship with Aboriginal culture?
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Nakor
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Jun 26, 2010 14:51:25 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on Jun 26, 2010 14:51:25 GMT -5
Should you really make up your beliefs about reality based on what suits your personal desires and interests though? It's like saying, "the plants will die without rain, so it must be raining." It only seems different because we don't know which is right, but I don't think that makes picking a 'convenient deity' any wiser. It just makes it more like, "the plants will die without rain, so it must be raining," said by a person who is locked in the basement and can't tell. Saying you'll be Jewish simply because their rules fit your life better is pretty meaningless.
I mean, even if it's difficult to do, and even if a god existed that would be forgiving about getting the question wrong, shouldn't we still try to discern the truth?
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Jun 26, 2010 16:19:20 GMT -5
Post by tehincoreuptable on Jun 26, 2010 16:19:20 GMT -5
I'm not basing my beliefs on what fits me. As I said, "I converted to Judaism because it made more sense to me"
Conveniadeism isn't "Oh I feel like doing this therefore it's more convenient to do this". The convenience in it is "I live in an Islamic country so I will worship in Islamic ways and won't be punished for it." I think by me saying "If you like pork, don't be Jewish", that probably leads to mis-guidance. I didn't actually mean going down to such minute details. It was a reverse-hyperbole, very much minimized from what the actuality is.
It's somewhat central to taking a blind shot in the dark. Yes, each religion says that they are the way. But who knows? Everyone claims that they are right, but only one can hold the truth. We do not know if Allah is more accurate than Yahweh. So why not just pick a religion that fits you best (meaning that you can believe in strongest). I am sure any G-d would prefer that you worship the wrong religion but at least you are thanking a G-d for creating everything instead of saying, "Haha G-d doesn't exist. And just to prove that I don't care, FUCK YOU G-D"
And yes, ze truth. As I said, if we don't know the truth we cannot worship the right religion. If we do not know that 2 is, then we cannot know what 2x2=4.
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Nakor
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Jun 26, 2010 18:04:15 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on Jun 26, 2010 18:04:15 GMT -5
Why not try to find the truth, rather than just pick something and consider the question as resolved as it can be?
I can understand following Islam at least in action while in a heavily Islamic country -- if only to avoid getting killed -- but I'm talking about beliefs, not actions. I mean, we're not just talking about different names here.
The Judeo-Christian God is the one that floods the world, leads wars, wipes out cities and so forth. The Christians (Jesus) and Muslims (Mohammed) elaborate on that God's ways and rules further, while the Jews basically leave it to the old testament. The aboriginal gods are many and varied, the Hindu have their own pantheon, the Wicca believe in any number of deities -- even ones of other religions in some cases -- being facets of the God and Goddess, and Buddhists may or may not even believe in a God. Atheists certainly don't. Deists think there probably was one, but he/she isn't around (or at least is leaving us completely to ourselves, as though we are now godless).
Those aren't just different names for the same god. They're completely different concepts. Isn't it worth at least some effort to try to find the truth rather than just stating that god, if he/she exists, will find whatever belief we have to be acceptable? Or to rephrase the question, supposing for a second there was a god, even if whatever god may exist didn't care what we believed (or didn't) about him/her, isn't it still worth trying to find out the truth for the truth's sake?
And somewhat unrelated to my previous line of thought: If it truly is such a shot in the dark -- with no evidence favouring any particular religious belief whatsoever -- isn't that evidence of a lack of evidence for any of them? Atheism is a valid option when comparing the religions, after all.
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Jun 27, 2010 1:09:13 GMT -5
Post by krzych32 on Jun 27, 2010 1:09:13 GMT -5
Nakor, how can you say all of that?! Jesus died for your sins, its a fact because its in the bible!
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Jun 27, 2010 3:00:38 GMT -5
Post by Lex on Jun 27, 2010 3:00:38 GMT -5
Nakor, how can you say all of that?! Jesus died for your sins, its a fact because its in the bible! I hope you're kidding, because I laughed at this. ;D
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lumorilla
Meteorite
Live like you'll never live it twice
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Jun 27, 2010 3:14:34 GMT -5
Post by lumorilla on Jun 27, 2010 3:14:34 GMT -5
What if actually Allah is God and Buddha and Yahweh altogether? And it's because of the the plague of ignorance that keeps Humans from perceiving the truth? Or maybe, He appeared in different forms, knowing that maybe Buddhism works better for the Eastern ppl and Christianity better for Western and... You get my point.
Lol, this isn't a random thought, we discussed it in my Buddhist Class.
No offence, but i seriously believe that no Supreme Being is so egoistical as to say that He himself is the greatest and that all those who don't believe in them shall die a horrible death. Their existence on Earth is to promote spiritual wellness in everyone's heart. And say if Muslims decide to wage a war on the Christians, i'd say Allah or God will be the ones up there crying. :/
And btw Nakor, Buddhists don't believe in Gods, they merely acknowledge their existence. Buddhists believe in Karma (we create our own destiny), or to say how Rhonda Byne said it, the law of attraction.
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Jun 27, 2010 9:20:31 GMT -5
Post by tehincoreuptable on Jun 27, 2010 9:20:31 GMT -5
Why not try to find the truth, rather than just pick something and consider the question as resolved as it can be? "As I said, if we don't know the truth we cannot worship the right religion. If we do not know that 2 is, then we cannot know what 2x2=4" I can understand following Islam at least in action while in a heavily Islamic country -- if only to avoid getting killed -- but I'm talking about beliefs, not actions. I mean, we're not just talking about different names here. The Judeo-Christian God is the one that floods the world, leads wars, wipes out cities and so forth. The Christians (Jesus) and Muslims (Mohammed) elaborate on that God's ways and rules further, while the Jews basically leave it to the old testament. The aboriginal gods are many and varied, the Hindu have their own pantheon, the Wicca believe in any number of deities -- even ones of other religions in some cases -- being facets of the God and Goddess, and Buddhists may or may not even believe in a God. Atheists certainly don't. Deists think there probably was one, but he/she isn't around (or at least is leaving us completely to ourselves, as though we are now godless). "Conveniadeism isn't "Oh I feel like doing this therefore it's more convenient to do this". The convenience in it is "I live in an Islamic country so I will worship in Islamic ways and won't be punished for it." I think by me saying "If you like pork, don't be Jewish", that probably leads to mis-guidance. I didn't actually mean going down to such minute details. It was a reverse-hyperbole, very much minimized from what the actuality is." Those aren't just different names for the same god. They're completely different concepts. Isn't it worth at least some effort to try to find the truth rather than just stating that god, if he/she exists, will find whatever belief we have to be acceptable? Or to rephrase the question, supposing for a second there was a god, even if whatever god may exist didn't care what we believed (or didn't) about him/her, isn't it still worth trying to find out the truth for the truth's sake? t's somewhat central to taking a blind shot in the dark. Yes, each religion says that they are the way. But who knows? Everyone claims that they are right, but only one can hold the truth. We do not know if Allah is more accurate than Yahweh. So why not just pick a religion that fits you best (meaning that you can believe in strongest). I am sure any G-d would prefer that you worship the wrong religion but at least you are thanking a G-d for creating everything instead of saying, "Haha G-d doesn't exist. And just to prove that I don't care, FUCK YOU G-D" And somewhat unrelated to my previous line of thought: If it truly is such a shot in the dark -- with no evidence favouring any particular religious belief whatsoever -- isn't that evidence of a lack of evidence for any of them? Atheism is a valid option when comparing the religions, after all. I never said Atheism didn't count. And yes, although it is a lack of evidence, belief isn't. People can believe what they want, can they not?
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Jun 27, 2010 12:14:47 GMT -5
Post by michaelt1987 on Jun 27, 2010 12:14:47 GMT -5
Now here's a better one: Judge not lest ye be judged. My God doesn't judge people, does yours? Do you actually want an examinantion of what that passage means? It means don't judge others by a standard, or that standard will be heald against you. It works on people, since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There's no point in complaining against one person's sin when we're all in the same boat here. God, on the other hand, cannot sin and so judges freely.
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Jun 27, 2010 12:17:56 GMT -5
Post by michaelt1987 on Jun 27, 2010 12:17:56 GMT -5
I converted to Judaism because it made more sense to me. It's pretty much, "Be a good person and you won't suffer eternally" instead of "Do whatever the balls you want, ask for forgiveness, and you won't suffer eternally". I think if you think that, you have fundimentally misunderstood Christianity, and really need to examine it in full. Specificly, read what Paul writes in a lot of the letters.
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Jun 27, 2010 13:03:52 GMT -5
Post by Lex on Jun 27, 2010 13:03:52 GMT -5
I converted to Judaism because it made more sense to me. It's pretty much, "Be a good person and you won't suffer eternally" instead of "Do whatever the balls you want, ask for forgiveness, and you won't suffer eternally". I think if you think that, you have fundimentally misunderstood Christianity, and really need to examine it in full. Specificly, read what Paul writes in a lot of the letters. This is what all Christians say when they hear someone doesn't like Christianity. Believe me, there is no misunderstanding. I know exactly what he's talking about, even though I am not Jewish.
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Nakor
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Jun 27, 2010 16:02:32 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on Jun 27, 2010 16:02:32 GMT -5
"As I said, if we don't know the truth we cannot worship the right religion. If we do not know that 2 is, then we cannot know what 2x2=4" I get that; what I'm saying that we should make the best effort possible to find out what that 2 is. I know all the evidence isn't there, and we can't know for sure, but we can at least reason and use what evidence we do have to make as well educated of a hypothesis as we can. Conveniadeism isn't "Oh I feel like doing this therefore it's more convenient to do this". The convenience in it is "I live in an Islamic country so I will worship in Islamic ways and won't be punished for it." I think by me saying "If you like pork, don't be Jewish", that probably leads to mis-guidance. I didn't actually mean going down to such minute details. It was a reverse-hyperbole, very much minimized from what the actuality is." Which is fine, and certainly so if for self-preservation, but I'm referring more to what you think (belief) than what you do (worship). I'd never blame someone in a heavily Islamic country of trying to protect themselves by following Islamic law, but when trying to think about what is actually true, that doesn't apply as much, barring mind reading devices. People who can make such religious choices without threat of course can then safely turn their beliefs into their method of worship (or lack thereof). It's somewhat central to taking a blind shot in the dark. Yes, each religion says that they are the way. But who knows? Everyone claims that they are right, but only one can hold the truth. We do not know if Allah is more accurate than Yahweh. So why not just pick a religion that fits you best (meaning that you can believe in strongest). I am sure any G-d would prefer that you worship the wrong religion but at least you are thanking a G-d for creating everything instead of saying, "Haha G-d doesn't exist. And just to prove that I don't care, FUCK YOU G-D" Is that what you think atheists do or something? We don't think there is a god, so why would we be lashing out at one? It's not "god is evil so I won't believe in him"; if I thought there was an evil god, I wouldn't be an atheist, and I would reject god. As an atheist, I don't hate/reject any gods, I just don't think they're there at all. It's not a negative/hateful thing, it's just what makes the most sense to me. And if we're talking about picking a religion that makes the most sense to you (which is how I interpret your phrase "can believe in the strongest"), then we're actually on the same page, or at least close. I'm suggesting that we should at least make a best effort in finding out the truth to what extent we can, and go with what seems to make the most sense, even if we can't come to a perfect conclusion. We do after all have some evidence; there isn't a complete absence of it. I never said Atheism didn't count. And yes, although it is a lack of evidence, belief isn't. People can believe what they want, can they not? I never said they couldn't, or that I'd want to take that right away. Doing so would make me no better than the Islamic countries that kill people for not being Muslim. But I would encourage people to actually criticize their beliefs, regardless of if they are already atheists or not, and regardless of what conclusion that criticism may lead to. Me, I think atheism makes the most sense, and yes, I think that if beliefs are truly criticized enough it's the most likely conclusion (deism being perhaps next, with Occam's Razor being the only real logical fault with it, and OR isn't a fallacy so much as a guideline), but at the very least I would encourage people to try to work to find the truth, to the reasonable best of their ability, rather than just stick with what they were raised as. That's all I'm talking about right now. I'm not trying to argue (at this moment) that everyone should be an atheist -- just that there is evidence to go on, and when choosing which religion to follow or whether to follow one at all, we should make as educated a choice as we can, given our resources. I'm just trying to say we should reason things out as best as we can, rather than either going with what we were told as kids or just going with our guts on it (what Colbert would call 'truthiness' .
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Jun 27, 2010 17:17:32 GMT -5
Post by tehincoreuptable on Jun 27, 2010 17:17:32 GMT -5
I converted to Judaism because it made more sense to me. It's pretty much, "Be a good person and you won't suffer eternally" instead of "Do whatever the balls you want, ask for forgiveness, and you won't suffer eternally". I think if you think that, you have fundimentally misunderstood Christianity, and really need to examine it in full. Specificly, read what Paul writes in a lot of the letters. There is no misunderstanding. For a religion that lets you do whatever you want and gives you forgiveness, it is quite unforgiving. As I said, I prefer to work on the premise of being a good person and being praised/being a bad person and being punished instead of being a good/bad person and being punished through life then praised if I ask for forgiveness. Christianity also states that being born, we are sinful, which is a second thing I find wrong. Humans have flaws, but I do not believe that by existing we are tainted. "As I said, if we don't know the truth we cannot worship the right religion. If we do not know that 2 is, then we cannot know what 2x2=4" I get that; what I'm saying that we should make the best effort possible to find out what that 2 is. I know all the evidence isn't there, and we can't know for sure, but we can at least reason and use what evidence we do have to make as well educated of a hypothesis as we can. And that's what my theories about. Conclusions that I figure are logical, for the most part. And I believe that a G-d wouldn't punish you for not worshiping the "right" religion if you've never heard of it. Which is fine, and certainly so if for self-preservation, but I'm referring more to what you think (belief) than what you do (worship). I'd never blame someone in a heavily Islamic country of trying to protect themselves by following Islamic law, but when trying to think about what is actually true, that doesn't apply as much, barring mind reading devices. People who can make such religious choices without threat of course can then safely turn their beliefs into their method of worship (or lack thereof). Thing is, one often cannot worship however you want. If a Muslim studies, for instance, Judaism, they will learn about yarmulkes, and realize it's encouraged to wear them. They'd feel pressure to wear one. Then go out and get shot. Is that what you think atheists do or something? We don't think there is a god, so why would we be lashing out at one? It's not "god is evil so I won't believe in him"; if I thought there was an evil god, I wouldn't be an atheist, and I would reject god. As an atheist, I don't hate/reject any gods, I just don't think they're there at all. It's not a negative/hateful thing, it's just what makes the most sense to me. Most Atheists that I know are Atheists for one of two reasons: 1. To look cool, to rebel, and to say fuck you to G-d. They acknowledge a G-d, they just don't think He's a good guy. 2. They think Christianity is the only religion and dislike it. I've realized that I'm officially in a debate with someone who falls into neither of the two categories, so I apologize if my arguments came off as...err..idiotic. I'm used to dealing with idiotic Atheists :\ And if we're talking about picking a religion that makes the most sense to you (which is how I interpret your phrase "can believe in the strongest"), then we're actually on the same page, or at least close. I'm suggesting that we should at least make a best effort in finding out the truth to what extent we can, and go with what seems to make the most sense, even if we can't come to a perfect conclusion. We do after all have some evidence; there isn't a complete absence of it. And that's what I'm doing. I'm taking evidence/logical theories, and making conclusions based on what makes sense to me. This is my best effort. Instead of practicing a religion and defending it without a head, I'm practicing a religion that makes sense to me and on the side developing religious theories based on what also makes sense to me. I never said Atheism didn't count. And yes, although it is a lack of evidence, belief isn't. People can believe what they want, can they not? I never said they couldn't, or that I'd want to take that right away. Doing so would make me no better than the Islamic countries that kill people for not being Muslim. But I would encourage people to actually criticize their beliefs, regardless of if they are already atheists or not, and regardless of what conclusion that criticism may lead to. Me, I think atheism makes the most sense, and yes, I think that if beliefs are truly criticized enough it's the most likely conclusion (deism being perhaps next, with Occam's Razor being the only real logical fault with it, and OR isn't a fallacy so much as a guideline), but at the very least I would encourage people to try to work to find the truth, to the reasonable best of their ability, rather than just stick with what they were raised as. That's all I'm talking about right now. I'm not trying to argue (at this moment) that everyone should be an atheist -- just that there is evidence to go on, and when choosing which religion to follow or whether to follow one at all, we should make as educated a choice as we can, given our resources. I'm just trying to say we should reason things out as best as we can, rather than either going with what we were told as kids or just going with our guts on it (what Colbert would call 'truthiness' . Yes, questions. Criticism. I was brought up in a Christian-Baptist household. I converted. Am I not questioning? I found flaws in Christianity and realized that Judaism makes a hell of a lot more sense to me. And I thank you for not bringing in the whole, "And Atheism is better anyways" argument that I constantly have to ignore. It's hard to debate with someone about an issue involving two religions when they won't debate it and instead just present evidence and try to convert you. I reasoned stuff out, I thought about it. Judaism makes sense to me. It fits my beliefs that I've had since I was a child. It's based on law and logic, two fond friends of mine. Also, you get a #cookie for bringing up Colbert. <3
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Nakor
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God...
Jun 27, 2010 20:50:24 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on Jun 27, 2010 20:50:24 GMT -5
Huh, I've met or spoken to several atheists, and I've never found one that falls in either category. I can perhaps imagine the former existing among teens, I suppose. I've met quite a few people who qualify the latter, but they tend to become non-denominational (believers not aligned with any particular church or organized belief) rather than atheists. There are quite a few atheists on this board and I'd say most of us are pretty rational and fair about it. (There are, that said, a lot of atheists who are atheists for the right reasons, but are still rude or otherwise unpleasant toward the religious, and for them I apologize. Fortunately, there don't seem to be any around these boards!)
See, I have to think that the action taken and the thought believed have to be seen separately. You might for example think that the Jewish interpretation of God is most accurate, but that such a god would be forgiving if you don't follow rules that would get you killed. You try to know the truth, without expressing anything that would get you killed. And I get that that's probably difficult or impossible in some places; that's why I say we each make a best effort. In an Islamic theocracy, that best effort is probably very little and one would keep it very closely to themselves whatever it is. In the free world that best effort can be much greater.
Also, I never intended to say you weren't questioning. Only that being questioning is better than following the pack, and that using real evidence and logic is better than going with gut and truthiness. It wasn't aimed at you; rather, it was more of an observation in general.
<3 Jon Stewart & Stephen Colbert
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