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Post by ladystardust on Jun 10, 2010 23:36:00 GMT -5
ADD and ADHD are commonly misdiagnosed. It's also the primary reason why so many people don't believe the disability actually exists. I'm sure you've all heard the argument that parents just want to shove Ritalin down their kids' throats to get them to behave. It is INCREDIBLY difficult to differentiate between a proper diagnosis and one made in error. In this respect, it has a lot in common with depression.
Both of my brothers were diagnosed with ADHD as children. One brother has since been tested for other learning disabilities as well, since they tend to go hand in hand.
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mhart29
Moon
rubik domination
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Post by mhart29 on Jun 10, 2010 23:49:04 GMT -5
Well the dyslexia paragraph i must say that it was god awful but as for I dyslexia is different it mixes up words in directly it is not the same it changes the words so the usualy makes sence as a real word. Like something said noiger it could say well something else i cant say considering im white.
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Post by rialvestro on Jun 11, 2010 1:02:24 GMT -5
ADD and ADHD are commonly misdiagnosed. It's also the primary reason why so many people don't believe the disability actually exists. I'm sure you've all heard the argument that parents just want to shove Ritalin down their kids' throats to get them to behave. It is INCREDIBLY difficult to differentiate between a proper diagnosis and one made in error. In this respect, it has a lot in common with depression. Both of my brothers were diagnosed with ADHD as children. One brother has since been tested for other learning disabilities as well, since they tend to go hand in hand. In regard to the comment about Ritalin, from my experiance Ritalin is rarely helpful with treating people who have ADD or ADHD. It's a good idea to try it but what people don't realize is if the child doesn't show any improvment by the time they finish their first perscription then it's never going to have any effect on them and the drug will end up doing more harm than good. This is actually part of the problem with my brother because this wasn't figured out till he became an adult so he was on Ritalin all threw childhood and as a teenager when it did nothing to help. My brother only started showing improvment after his doesage was reduced and eventually stopped taking it completly. Oddly enough I've also heard some people with ADHD get reverse effects from caffine. Most people would never give coffee to a person who was allready hyper all the time but I've seen where some people get the reverse effect and insted of getting hyper and more awake coffee makes them less hyper. I don't know exactly how this was discovered but this I would recomend trying just for 1 day assuming the person is old enough that it's not going to cause other problems. (Note: In my family coffee is rare and was treated like alcohol in other words, never given to children and only brewed when we have company over, my parents never touch the coffee maker.) Anyway... a learning dissability shouldn't be an excuse. Rather than treating it by giving kids easier work in special classes like they did when I was in school I think they should actually find a way to work around the problem so that the child still does the same amount of work as the normal class but gets a different learning experiance that's more tailored to their needs. Truthfully I think this is true for all kids that's why I like the idea of home schooling because you can't custom tailor the learning process for each studient in a public school like you can for a single studient in home school. Home schooling has problems as well, mainly the lack of socializing with other kids your own age but there are public parks and other places you can take your kids to make up for that factor.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2010 2:21:01 GMT -5
Hold on, how come like half the people have ADD or something like that on this forum? that's because doctors are too quick to diagnose people with ADD, while they're only a bit hyperactive.
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Post by The Monster on Jun 11, 2010 7:22:24 GMT -5
Hold on, how come like half the people have ADD or something like that on this forum? Because were smarter
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Post by KipEnyan on Jun 11, 2010 11:32:45 GMT -5
Lmfao, nice. I'll go with the argument that ADD/ADHD people are smarter, sure, why not. XD
But yeah, that thing with caffeine works the same way Ritalin and Adderall work, all 3 of them are stimulants. It's counterintuitive, but in order to be able to focus, many people with ADHD need more stimulation not less.
It brings me to the case of video games/tv. Sometimes I hear the argument "Why can't this kid focus on something simple like writing something for homework, but he can sit there in front of a television screen motionless and enthralled for hours." It all has to do with the level of stimulation. ADHD in particular, since that is the case in which I speak from experience, it all has to do with the amount of my brain that is engaged at any given time.
When I'm writing something stupid and not-at-all thought-provoking down on paper, little more than the motor neurons required to move my hand are engaged, and therefore the rest of my mind wanders aimlessly, making the task at hand superhumanly difficult. Whereas when I'm playing Starcraft 2, so many different processes in different areas are going on at once, my whole mind can actually hone in on one thing with precision.
A cute little analogy would be to think of someone with ADHD as an average quad-core processor in comparison to a normal person, who I would call a powerful single-core processor.
Except in this case, when only 1 core is being engaged, the other 3 go surf the brain internet for mind-numbing distractions to fuck up the first core. XD
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Post by brumagem on Jun 11, 2010 12:33:35 GMT -5
Learning disability is the inhibition of gathering information. Intelligence is the recognition, processing and application of that information. No, I don't think there is any causational relationship here.
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Post by Johncoyne on Jun 11, 2010 14:48:27 GMT -5
Most of the people with ADD that I know are pretty smart and creative. We has a lot of smart and creative people here.
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Post by jeradjones on Jun 11, 2010 15:29:31 GMT -5
I don't believe in "smart" or "dumb." I believe in hard work. Sure, there are people who will naturally be better than others at academics, but it's going to get them nowhere if they aren't willing to put in some effort. People who get horrible grades in school and claim "to be stupid" or "not as smart as somebody else" make me want to punch them in the face. There really is no excuse for "being stupid" (unless you are handicapped). If you are willing to put in the effort, you'll be considered "smart."
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Post by KipEnyan on Jun 11, 2010 16:49:55 GMT -5
I don't believe in "smart" or "dumb." I believe in hard work. Sure, there are people who will naturally be better than others at academics, but it's going to get them nowhere if they aren't willing to put in some effort. People who get horrible grades in school and claim "to be stupid" or "not as smart as somebody else" make me want to punch them in the face. There really is no excuse for "being stupid" (unless you are handicapped). If you are willing to put in the effort, you'll be considered "smart." Quite an ignorant viewpoint in my opinion. There are undoubtedly innately intelligent and unintelligent people. And assuming both of these people work at an average pace, the intelligent person will always be smarter than the unintelligent person, will he not?
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Post by jeradjones on Jun 11, 2010 17:00:10 GMT -5
I don't believe in "smart" or "dumb." I believe in hard work. Sure, there are people who will naturally be better than others at academics, but it's going to get them nowhere if they aren't willing to put in some effort. People who get horrible grades in school and claim "to be stupid" or "not as smart as somebody else" make me want to punch them in the face. There really is no excuse for "being stupid" (unless you are handicapped). If you are willing to put in the effort, you'll be considered "smart." Quite an ignorant viewpoint in my opinion. There are undoubtedly innately intelligent and unintelligent people. And assuming both of these people work at an average pace, the intelligent person will always be smarter than the unintelligent person, will he not? Nope. I know plenty of intelligent people who are idiots because they'd rather sit on their butts all day doing absolutely nothing but playing video games. I know a few unintelligent people who study for almost two hours everyday during the school year just to get on the honor roll. If you're going to be intelligent, you have to work. I don't appreciate people who have been gifted with the ability to learn better than others and decide not to utilize their intelligence. That's basically like saying, "I was given fifty dollars and they were given ten. I guess I don't have to do work because I have more money than them."
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Post by jeradjones on Jun 11, 2010 17:08:08 GMT -5
As for the average pace, think of a linear graph. The intelligent person's graph is y=x+100 and the less intelligent person's graph is y=x-100. If they both work at an average pace, the intelligent person will always be ahead, but the higher in the graph you go the less the difference seems to make. Let's say x eventually gets to 10,000. A difference of 200 is only about 1% to 2%. I believe if you are naturally gifted in academics, you should be using what you're given.
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Post by KipEnyan on Jun 11, 2010 17:33:12 GMT -5
I think of the difference more as a quadratic equation. If you compare intelligent person y=x^4 vs unintelligent person y=x^2, the difference in their knowledge remains relative to their current level of knowledge.
I say this because, due to the fact that an unintelligent person learns slower, the gap will be steadily increasing between their current levels of knowledge. Unintelligent people don't just start out knowing less, then continue to learn at the same rate as an intelligent person.
The intelligent person learns at a faster rate, but they don't have a larger initial knowledge bank. Therefore, a linear equation is inappropriate for the context of the situation, whereas a parabolic one fits much better.
Intelligent person at x=1 y=x^4 y=1^4 y=1
Unintelligent person at x=1 y=x^2 y=1^2 y=1
Initial knowledge is always the same.
Intelligent person at x=2 y=x^4 y=2^4 y=16
Unintelligent person at x=2 y=x^2 y=2^2 y=4
There is a difference in knowledge, but at an early stage the difference is only 8 points.
Intelligent person at 100 y=x^4 y=100^4 y=100,000,000
Unintelligent person at 100 y=x^2 y=100^2 y=10,000
We now see that at an advanced level the gap between knowledge is 99,990,000.
It's fairly easy to see here that as an intelligent person and an unintelligent person learn at a constant effort(x), the intelligent person will always be more knowledgeable than the unintelligent person.
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mhart29
Moon
rubik domination
Posts: 182
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Post by mhart29 on Jun 11, 2010 23:30:08 GMT -5
people other than doctors diagnosis people who are traind to diagnose that stuff.
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Post by jeradjones on Jun 12, 2010 0:59:23 GMT -5
Knowledge can't be squared dude. If both the intelligent and less intelligent person know the same fact, then you can't say the intelligent person is at 4 while the less intelligent person is at 2. The more intelligent person may learn at a faster rate, but if the less intelligent person puts in more effort they can be smarter.
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Post by Lyserg Zeroz on Jun 12, 2010 1:51:30 GMT -5
( jeradjones and KipEnyan's discussion) Mmh... I kinda agree with Kip, also so I suppose the "putting more effort" thing shouldn't count. But even so, and even if I don't like to say that there is such thing as "dumb" and "smart", we have to admit that there is people that even with hard work and effort wouldn't understand or learn something, while others just need one minute to understand and/or learn that same thing. About the real topic, I don't think a learning disability would make a person "stupid", they are more like (quoting KipEnyan) "learning inconveniences", and also, even if a learning disability represents a problem in one area for some person, that same person would be extremely intelligent in other area (like some autistics or aspergers that can be very bad at communicating but awesome in remembering things or doing or making something in specific)
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Post by rialvestro on Jun 12, 2010 2:09:21 GMT -5
Um... neither side of this argument makes any sense to me and this may be because you're all referring to people as intelligent and less intelligent or something like that rather than learning disabled and normal.
If a person is intelligent it doesn't matter if they worked to get that way or if it just comes natural, intelligence is the same either way. Same with unintelligent people, if a person has a disability that isn't being or don't know how to deal with or they are normal and just lazy it amounts to the same thing.
The way you're wording things both sides of the argument seem to be contradicting themselves making the entire argument pointless and senseless. You're both basically just saying people can be both smart and stupid at the same time but stating different reasons why and I just don't understand it at all.
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Post by jeradjones on Jun 12, 2010 3:03:11 GMT -5
Um... neither side of this argument makes any sense to me and this may be because you're all referring to people as intelligent and less intelligent or something like that rather than learning disabled and normal. If a person is intelligent it doesn't matter if they worked to get that way or if it just comes natural, intelligence is the same either way. Same with unintelligent people, if a person has a disability that isn't being or don't know how to deal with or they are normal and just lazy it amounts to the same thing. The way you're wording things both sides of the argument seem to be contradicting themselves making the entire argument pointless and senseless. You're both basically just saying people can be both smart and stupid at the same time but stating different reasons why and I just don't understand it at all. I was saying that unless you have a severe handicap there really shouldn't be an excuse to why you can be intelligent. Some people process things easier I admit while others take longer. As for the "some people just can't learn something" comment I don't believe that one bit unless, like I said before, you have a handicap. It takes me hours just to memorize something, while other people can memorize stuff the first time they hear it. I have trouble in history for this reason, but I'm able to pass my history classes because I'm willing to put in the effort. I'm better at math because I can process how to solve a problem, while other people have a bit more trouble with that. I don't believe the excuse of "I'll never be able to do it" is acceptable at all. If you put in the effort, you can do it. Yes, I know I will get flamed for this, but this is how I've seen it my whole life, and I just absolutely hate when somebody tells me they can't learn a subject because they're bad at it when they've obviously never even put in effort.
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Post by DigitalSpork on Jun 12, 2010 10:56:56 GMT -5
Hell no! My little brother's got ADHD and the kid's smarter than I was when I was his age! (To put that into perspective, I had the opportunity to skip the first grade entirely.) A learning disablilty doesn't make somebody 'Stupid'. If they can overcome it and learn the same material as the average joe, I say that they're smarter! They would definitely have their priorities straight if they were to work hard enough to get the same grades as everybody else and become a functioning member of society.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2010 10:58:54 GMT -5
Um... neither side of this argument makes any sense to me and this may be because you're all referring to people as intelligent and less intelligent or something like that rather than learning disabled and normal. If a person is intelligent it doesn't matter if they worked to get that way or if it just comes natural, intelligence is the same either way. Same with unintelligent people, if a person has a disability that isn't being or don't know how to deal with or they are normal and just lazy it amounts to the same thing. The way you're wording things both sides of the argument seem to be contradicting themselves making the entire argument pointless and senseless. You're both basically just saying people can be both smart and stupid at the same time but stating different reasons why and I just don't understand it at all. I was saying that unless you have a severe handicap there really shouldn't be an excuse to why you can be intelligent. Some people process things easier I admit while others take longer. As for the "some people just can't learn something" comment I don't believe that one bit unless, like I said before, you have a handicap. It takes me hours just to memorize something, while other people can memorize stuff the first time they hear it. I have trouble in history for this reason, but I'm able to pass my history classes because I'm willing to put in the effort. I'm better at math because I can process how to solve a problem, while other people have a bit more trouble with that. I don't believe the excuse of "I'll never be able to do it" is acceptable at all. If you put in the effort, you can do it. Yes, I know I will get flamed for this, but this is how I've seen it my whole life, and I just absolutely hate when somebody tells me they can't learn a subject because they're bad at it when they've obviously never even put in effort. That obviously show that you have never met anyone who's in that situation. I have 2 or 3 friends who work about 10 times as much as me, yet never are able to get good results. How do you explain that?
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