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Post by rialvestro on Jun 12, 2010 11:21:18 GMT -5
Um... neither side of this argument makes any sense to me and this may be because you're all referring to people as intelligent and less intelligent or something like that rather than learning disabled and normal. If a person is intelligent it doesn't matter if they worked to get that way or if it just comes natural, intelligence is the same either way. Same with unintelligent people, if a person has a disability that isn't being or don't know how to deal with or they are normal and just lazy it amounts to the same thing. The way you're wording things both sides of the argument seem to be contradicting themselves making the entire argument pointless and senseless. You're both basically just saying people can be both smart and stupid at the same time but stating different reasons why and I just don't understand it at all. I was saying that unless you have a severe handicap there really shouldn't be an excuse to why you can be intelligent. Some people process things easier I admit while others take longer. As for the "some people just can't learn something" comment I don't believe that one bit unless, like I said before, you have a handicap. It takes me hours just to memorize something, while other people can memorize stuff the first time they hear it. I have trouble in history for this reason, but I'm able to pass my history classes because I'm willing to put in the effort. I'm better at math because I can process how to solve a problem, while other people have a bit more trouble with that. I don't believe the excuse of "I'll never be able to do it" is acceptable at all. If you put in the effort, you can do it. Yes, I know I will get flamed for this, but this is how I've seen it my whole life, and I just absolutely hate when somebody tells me they can't learn a subject because they're bad at it when they've obviously never even put in effort. I was never good at History either. I did well enough to pass the class but that's it and I did everything I could just to get that far. Oddly enough no one ever recognized that I had trouble in History as I was put in special ed for reading dissability which I didn't even have till after years of being in the special ed class. That's why I know the class gets easier work and doesn't learn as much as regular classes because the kids in the regular classes allways knew things we were never being taught about. A good example of this is that in math class we never got to advanced algebra so when other kids were talking about X + 23 = 42 I didn't know what the hell they were talking about. That's basic algebra BTW which was taught in normal classes starting in about the 4th grade but special Ed classes never got to learn it till high school.
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Post by jeradjones on Jun 12, 2010 11:38:39 GMT -5
I was saying that unless you have a severe handicap there really shouldn't be an excuse to why you can be intelligent. Some people process things easier I admit while others take longer. As for the "some people just can't learn something" comment I don't believe that one bit unless, like I said before, you have a handicap. It takes me hours just to memorize something, while other people can memorize stuff the first time they hear it. I have trouble in history for this reason, but I'm able to pass my history classes because I'm willing to put in the effort. I'm better at math because I can process how to solve a problem, while other people have a bit more trouble with that. I don't believe the excuse of "I'll never be able to do it" is acceptable at all. If you put in the effort, you can do it. Yes, I know I will get flamed for this, but this is how I've seen it my whole life, and I just absolutely hate when somebody tells me they can't learn a subject because they're bad at it when they've obviously never even put in effort. That obviously show that you have never met anyone who's in that situation. I have 2 or 3 friends who work about 10 times as much as me, yet never are able to get good results. How do you explain that? I don't believe one bit your friends "work 10 times as much as you". As I said before, unless they have a severe handicap saying "I can't learn something" is B.S. I put in the effort and I can learn, so it's horse crap if you tell me you can't learn it because "it's too hard" or "your brain won't process it".
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Post by jeradjones on Jun 12, 2010 11:41:02 GMT -5
I was saying that unless you have a severe handicap there really shouldn't be an excuse to why you can be intelligent. Some people process things easier I admit while others take longer. As for the "some people just can't learn something" comment I don't believe that one bit unless, like I said before, you have a handicap. It takes me hours just to memorize something, while other people can memorize stuff the first time they hear it. I have trouble in history for this reason, but I'm able to pass my history classes because I'm willing to put in the effort. I'm better at math because I can process how to solve a problem, while other people have a bit more trouble with that. I don't believe the excuse of "I'll never be able to do it" is acceptable at all. If you put in the effort, you can do it. Yes, I know I will get flamed for this, but this is how I've seen it my whole life, and I just absolutely hate when somebody tells me they can't learn a subject because they're bad at it when they've obviously never even put in effort. I was never good at History either. I did well enough to pass the class but that's it and I did everything I could just to get that far. Oddly enough no one ever recognized that I had trouble in History as I was put in special ed for reading dissability which I didn't even have till after years of being in the special ed class. That's why I know the class gets easier work and doesn't learn as much as regular classes because the kids in the regular classes allways knew things we were never being taught about. A good example of this is that in math class we never got to advanced algebra so when other kids were talking about X + 23 = 42 I didn't know what the hell they were talking about. That's basic algebra BTW which was taught in normal classes starting in about the 4th grade but special Ed classes never got to learn it till high school. I was still learning division in 4th grade. They didn't teach me that stuff until 6th grade.
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Post by rialvestro on Jun 12, 2010 12:46:24 GMT -5
I was never good at History either. I did well enough to pass the class but that's it and I did everything I could just to get that far. Oddly enough no one ever recognized that I had trouble in History as I was put in special ed for reading dissability which I didn't even have till after years of being in the special ed class. That's why I know the class gets easier work and doesn't learn as much as regular classes because the kids in the regular classes allways knew things we were never being taught about. A good example of this is that in math class we never got to advanced algebra so when other kids were talking about X + 23 = 42 I didn't know what the hell they were talking about. That's basic algebra BTW which was taught in normal classes starting in about the 4th grade but special Ed classes never got to learn it till high school. I was still learning division in 4th grade. They didn't teach me that stuff until 6th grade. Well that's still sooner than high school. Multiplication and division for special ed didn't even start till 6th grade. And I'm normally good in math but I always had trouble with division. My two main problems is what to do with the remainders and even calculators don't know what to do at that point which is why you end up seeing the .826086956 or some rediculasly long number on the calculator. The other problem I had was more of a personal issue or dispute with the teachers which is the fact that if I wrote down the right answer but didn't show the work it was still marked as wrong. I don't feel the need to wright down all the stuff to figure out the answer if I already know what the answer is. I never have to show my work with any other math, if I know the answer and wright it down without showing all the carrey over of numbers they accept it so why it's required to show for division only I don't understand. If they going to require that it should be for everything not just division. Example: If the problem is 4286 divided by 2 I know the answer is 2143 because it's an even number and anything devided by 2 is just half. Why do I need to do all the wrighting down of 2 goes into 6 3 times ect. to get to the answer when I allready know what it's going to be? BTW whoever said useing a calculator was cheating has never met me. I learned math by useing a calculator. Typing in the problem, seeing the answer, and then figuring out how the calculator came to that answer which is why I can't figure out remainders because my brain wants to figure out how the calculator came up with the .826086956 at the end. I use to play with my dad's calculator when I was little and actually trying to figure out what the numbers were going to be and from that, by the time I actually started school I was already way ahead of the other kids in math class. Actually in many ways I was ahead of other kids till the school decided to put me in special ed and I started to fall behind because of that. I was judged based on a sleeping dissorder which prevented me from focusing in morning classes due to being tiard all the time not because of a learning dissability. No one ever bothered to test me to notice that I was actually more advanced than the normal classes. I never even realized that sleeping was an issue till I got older. The only real issue when I was younger is I use to get night mares every night that would wake me up and then not be able to go back to sleep. After I grew out of the stage where night mares would keep me awake and could tell myself it wasn't real and go to sleep again they got less frequent and I started realizing there were other reasons I wasn't sleeping well. Nightmares or not I've never been able to sleep straight threw the night if I sleep at all. Durring the day, provided no one disturbs me I can sleep perfectly fine without problem. It's kinda like my internal clock is set backwards so midnight for everyone else is noon for me and vice versa. Maybe I should move to the other side of the world where the time zone is quite literally the oppisite of PST in California.
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Post by ladystardust on Jun 12, 2010 16:47:30 GMT -5
That obviously show that you have never met anyone who's in that situation. I have 2 or 3 friends who work about 10 times as much as me, yet never are able to get good results. How do you explain that? I don't believe one bit your friends "work 10 times as much as you". As I said before, unless they have a severe handicap saying "I can't learn something" is B.S. I put in the effort and I can learn, so it's horse crap if you tell me you can't learn it because "it's too hard" or "your brain won't process it". Either I am completely misreading, or the above can be translated as follows: crracktheskye: I have personal experience/testimony that refutes/disproves your claim. jeradjones: You are lying. I cannot possibly be incorrect. I have considerable experience tutoring individuals of various ages and levels of education (though none had learning disabilities), and I too, disagree with you, jeradjones. Hard work does not always make up for the lack of intellectual potential. Now, it is possible for two individuals to finish a class, for example, with the same grade, regardless of initial intellect or knowledge. Student A may have a firmer initial grasp on the material, and does not work as hard, whereas Student B has a great deal of difficulty, but spends most of his time studying the material to make up for it. However, this is not always the case. Hard work does not equal intelligence, without exception. Saying "A is often the same as B" is very different than insisting that "A is ALWAYS the same as B."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2010 17:05:13 GMT -5
I don't believe one bit your friends "work 10 times as much as you". As I said before, unless they have a severe handicap saying "I can't learn something" is B.S. I put in the effort and I can learn, so it's horse crap if you tell me you can't learn it because "it's too hard" or "your brain won't process it". Either I am completely misreading, or the above can be translated as follows: crracktheskye: I have personal experience/testimony that refutes/disproves your claim. jeradjones: You are lying. I cannot possibly be incorrect. I have considerable experience tutoring individuals of various ages and levels of education (though none had learning disabilities), and I too, disagree with you, jeradjones. Hard work does not always make up for the lack of intellectual potential. Now, it is possible for two individuals to finish a class, for example, with the same grade, regardless of initial intellect or knowledge. Student A may have a firmer initial grasp on the material, and does not work as hard, whereas Student B has a great deal of difficulty, but spends most of his time studying the material to make up for it. However, this is not always the case. Hard work does not equal intelligence, without exception. Saying "A is often the same as B" is very different than insisting that "A is ALWAYS the same as B." You are right both on the translation as on your own statement. I'll give you one example ( jeradjones) from a friend like that. Her name is CĂ©line F. (not giving full name obviously). In high school, I used to do jack shirt till 4th year of high school (I guess that's grade 10 in America). She always had to work a shirtload, like 3 hours every day during the week (which is a lot considering we have 7 - 8 hour school days). Yet she scored about 60% (all courses combined), while she was in a class which is considered a lot easier than the class I was in (like she was in C-class, which was the easiest, then you had B-class and I was in A-class, these aren't divided on intelligence, you can chose what you want to follow). And I scored about 70% (combined). I hope that's enough evidence for you.
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Post by jeradjones on Jun 12, 2010 18:13:12 GMT -5
I'll accept your beliefs, but you can't change my mind on this issue. I believe that no matter what with hard work and perseverance you can teach somebody something. There are plenty of handicapped people that can learn how to drive, so I don't see why you can't teach somebody who isn't handicapped an academic subject.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2010 19:18:04 GMT -5
so even though we provide you with real-life experience and evidence, you don't want to re-think your opinion? Not much use discussing with you then. Have a nice day and I hope to see again you somewhere else than in the Debate Section.
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Post by jeradjones on Jun 12, 2010 21:33:26 GMT -5
so even though we provide you with real-life experience and evidence, you don't want to re-think your opinion? Not much use discussing with you then. Have a nice day and I hope to see again you somewhere else than in the Debate Section. Sorry, I don't believe the real-life experiences. People always tell me they can't learn math, and the ones that agree to stay after school with me so I can help them end up learning the subject because they willingly put in the effort. The excuse "I can't learn the subject" is a lazy person's way of saying I don't want to put in the effort.
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Post by jeradjones on Jun 12, 2010 21:36:18 GMT -5
As for the "I hope to see you somewhere else other than the debate section" comment, please don't be so ignorant. Just because I don't have the same views as you doesn't mean you should tell me I shouldn't argue with you.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2010 3:01:20 GMT -5
As for the "I hope to see you somewhere else other than the debate section" comment, please don't be so ignorant. Just because I don't have the same views as you doesn't mean you should tell me I shouldn't argue with you. aren't you the one being ignorant here? O.O I give you evidence and you say "NO I DON'T BELIEVE YOU YOU'RE WRONG CUZ AM RIGHT" .. No use debating with someone who thinks like this..
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Post by jeradjones on Jun 13, 2010 15:28:38 GMT -5
As for the "I hope to see you somewhere else other than the debate section" comment, please don't be so ignorant. Just because I don't have the same views as you doesn't mean you should tell me I shouldn't argue with you. aren't you the one being ignorant here? O.O I give you evidence and you say "NO I DON'T BELIEVE YOU YOU'RE WRONG CUZ AM RIGHT" .. No use debating with someone who thinks like this.. That is not what I said at all? I said I believe no matter what UNLESS you suffer from some sort of learning disability that "I can't learn this" shouldn't be an excuse. You're now flaming me because I don't agree with your opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2010 16:15:15 GMT -5
aren't you the one being ignorant here? O.O I give you evidence and you say "NO I DON'T BELIEVE YOU YOU'RE WRONG CUZ AM RIGHT" .. No use debating with someone who thinks like this.. That is not what I said at all? I said I believe no matter what UNLESS you suffer from some sort of learning disability that "I can't learn this" shouldn't be an excuse. You're now flaming me because I don't agree with your opinion. no, that's not true.. I presented you with facts, you ignored them.
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Post by KipEnyan on Jun 13, 2010 16:28:03 GMT -5
jeradjonesIn regards to our discussion with the intelligent vs. unintelligent, x represented a constant effort, not learning 1 fact, so there is no flaw in my logic of exponential expansion of knowledge. In regards to your current debate with CrrackTheSkye, quite frankly, CrrackTheSkye is right. You can rant and rave about what you believe about the virtues of hard work and blah blah blah all day long, but when presented with evidence to the contrary, you can't just go "I don't believe you, you're a liar, they're liars, that disproves my theory so I have to neglect it as fact, no."
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Post by jeradjones on Jun 13, 2010 16:46:58 GMT -5
I don't believe people when they say they can't learn something. Do me a favor and sit down with these friends and teach them. Force them to study with you, and they will learn. If my friends are having trouble, I help them. They tell me crap all the time like "This class is impossible" or "I hate this teacher". I'll sit with the after school then and show them how to do the work, and every time they say, "Oh, I get it." It's horse crap if you say you can't learn a subject. I don't believe anyone who tells me they can understand how to write and how history works, but they will never be good at math. As I have said many times unless you have a learning disability saying you can learn something like how to write but can't learn how to learn a math problem is like saying you can think at 10 A.M. to 12 P.M. but you can't function from 12 P.M. to 2 P.M. I remain adamant on this situation, and just because I don't change my opinion does not mean I shouldn't be in the debate forum.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2010 16:52:30 GMT -5
I don't believe people when they say they can't learn something. Do me a favor and sit down with these friends and teach them. Force them to study with you, and they will learn. If my friends are having trouble, I help them. They tell me crap all the time like "This class is impossible" or "I hate this teacher". I'll sit with the after school then and show them how to do the work, and every time they say, "Oh, I get it." It's horse crap if you say you can't learn a subject. I don't believe anyone who tells me they can understand how to write and how history works, but they will never be good at math. As I have said many times unless you have a learning disability saying you can learn something like how to write but can't learn how to learn a math problem is like saying you can think at 10 A.M. to 12 P.M. but you can't function from 12 P.M. to 2 P.M. I remain adamant on this situation, and just because I don't change my opinion does not mean I shouldn't be in the debate forum. I didn't mean you shouldn't be in the debate forum, I meant that I won't discuss with someone who refuses to acknowledge valid proof. As on your remarks about sitting down with them and whatnot, I'm not going to go into detail as that's personal, but I spent more time working with my friend than studying myself. She's the most hard-working person I know and she genuinely tries to improve, to study, to understand, and yeah, she did pass her final exams and she's in college now, but she still has to work 10 times as hard to barely pass.
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Post by jeradjones on Jun 13, 2010 17:32:36 GMT -5
I don't believe people when they say they can't learn something. Do me a favor and sit down with these friends and teach them. Force them to study with you, and they will learn. If my friends are having trouble, I help them. They tell me crap all the time like "This class is impossible" or "I hate this teacher". I'll sit with the after school then and show them how to do the work, and every time they say, "Oh, I get it." It's horse crap if you say you can't learn a subject. I don't believe anyone who tells me they can understand how to write and how history works, but they will never be good at math. As I have said many times unless you have a learning disability saying you can learn something like how to write but can't learn how to learn a math problem is like saying you can think at 10 A.M. to 12 P.M. but you can't function from 12 P.M. to 2 P.M. I remain adamant on this situation, and just because I don't change my opinion does not mean I shouldn't be in the debate forum. I didn't mean you shouldn't be in the debate forum, I meant that I won't discuss with someone who refuses to acknowledge valid proof. As on your remarks about sitting down with them and whatnot, I'm not going to go into detail as that's personal, but I spent more time working with my friend than studying myself. She's the most hard-working person I know and she genuinely tries to improve, to study, to understand, and yeah, she did pass her final exams and she's in college now, but she still has to work 10 times as hard to barely pass. She's passing, so that means she's learning enough about the subject to receive her college credit. I don't really want to argue this subject anymore. Through your personal experiences you couldn't help your friend, but through all mine I've been able to help my friends pass a subject.
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Post by KipEnyan on Jun 13, 2010 21:17:13 GMT -5
Yes, CrrackTheSkye's friend is passing, but the argument wasn't if they could pass, the argument was if they could learn just as well as a naturally gifted person with extra effort, and the clear answer, at least in this and some other cases, is NO. Your argument has already been invalidated multiple times, and yet you still stick by it. Pretty poor debate procedure IMHO.
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Post by jeradjones on Jun 14, 2010 10:06:28 GMT -5
Yes, CrrackTheSkye's friend is passing, but the argument wasn't if they could pass, the argument was if they could learn just as well as a naturally gifted person with extra effort, and the clear answer, at least in this and some other cases, is NO. Your argument has already been invalidated multiple times, and yet you still stick by it. Pretty poor debate procedure IMHO. So because you don't like my side of an argument, you're going to tell me I'm a poor debater? This argument is really no different than the argument of "Is abortion wrong?" and you say that your side is correct. That's stupid. There is no correct side. You've provided examples of kids saying they can't learn and not learning, and I've provided examples of kids saying they can't learn and learning. Please don't tell me I "have poor debating skills" just because you don't like my side of the argument.
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Post by KipEnyan on Jun 14, 2010 10:48:26 GMT -5
This isn't a matter of opinion. You're getting that confused. You're claiming that anyone, even unintelligent, without learning disabilities CAN learn as well as an intelligent person as long as they put in the effort. That is a statement of fact.
CrrackTheSkye has provided antithetical evidence to the contrary of your hypothesis.
Therefore, if your rule does not apply in all cases, it is in fact, not a rule at all.
So, in order to still believe in it, you either practice some magical form of doublethink, or you are practicing poor debate procedure in not being able to concede a flaw in your argument.
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