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Suicide
Jun 13, 2010 16:00:51 GMT -5
Post by KipEnyan on Jun 13, 2010 16:00:51 GMT -5
Suicide: Who's to blame?
Some say that someone who is going to commit suicide will commit suicide regardless of what other people do. That these people won't give any warning signs, no matter how subtle, they'll just do it.
Some say that there will ALWAYS be warning signs, that it is the responsibility of those around the person to recognize and do something about.
Still others blame the parents, society, blah blah blah.
What do you think?
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Cortney
Star
[AWD:0c15]The Objectioner
The Bown
Posts: 885
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Suicide
Jun 13, 2010 16:20:42 GMT -5
Post by Cortney on Jun 13, 2010 16:20:42 GMT -5
If a person commits suicide, it's their business. They might be provoked by parents or society, but I say let them do what they want, even if it's as drastic as suicide.
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Suicide
Jun 13, 2010 16:29:40 GMT -5
Post by KipEnyan on Jun 13, 2010 16:29:40 GMT -5
If a person commits suicide, it's their business. They might be provoked by parents or society, but I say let them do what they want, even if it's as drastic as suicide. So the innumerable effects that it has on the people around them should be negated just because it was a "personal choice"?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Suicide
Jun 13, 2010 16:47:57 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2010 16:47:57 GMT -5
If a person commits suicide, it's their business. They might be provoked by parents or society, but I say let them do what they want, even if it's as drastic as suicide. So the innumerable effects that it has on the people around them should be negated just because it was a "personal choice"? If you punch the person next to you, it's also your own choice, but depending on the situation that can be justified. For example if that person just said "Hey, I'm going to rape your sister tonight, have a nice day.', that punch would be justified. In the case of suicide, the reason don't always come from external influences, but you can compare it. Sometimes suicide if justified and then the surrounding shouldn't have anything to say in it in my opinion.
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jaw
Moon
Oh yeah!
Posts: 154
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Suicide
Jun 13, 2010 16:50:05 GMT -5
Post by jaw on Jun 13, 2010 16:50:05 GMT -5
Suicide is a very complicated thing. There are so many factors that play into it. But, when you come down to it, I think that the person did it to themselves, this does not mean that nothing else had a role in why the person did it. I feel suicide shows the person is a coward. They ran away from their problems, instead of facing it. This doesn't mean I think people who've contemplated suicide are cowards, I feel that the people who wanted to kill themselves but didn't, show courage.
I believe that is it society's responsibility to make sure that suicide should never even be considered, since society is usually why people commit suicide.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Suicide
Jun 13, 2010 16:54:38 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2010 16:54:38 GMT -5
I don't think it's agreeable to call someone a coward based on that. You don't know what they go through, maybe they have psychological problems,..
As you said, there's so many factors to think about that it's impossible for an outsider to judge in my opinion.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Suicide
Jun 13, 2010 16:57:32 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2010 16:57:32 GMT -5
Suicide: Who's to blame? Some say that someone who is going to commit suicide will commit suicide regardless of what other people do. That these people won't give any warning signs, no matter how subtle, they'll just do it. Some say that there will ALWAYS be warning signs, that it is the responsibility of those around the person to recognize and do something about. Still others blame the parents, society, blah blah blah. What do you think? I think we can't define a specific situation which happens with everybody. People react differently to different events. Some some might show warning signs, others might not. Some might commit suicide regardless of what happens, other might not. Some suicides should be blamed on x, y or z, others may be "hard wired". If we see things from a logical perspective, we should focus on the well being of the person, being "well being" mostly the wishes and preferences of the person. If a person wants to commit suicide because (s)he is going trough a phase, we should help that person overcome it, but that is probably the most we can (and should) do. If a person has hit rock bottom, has no chance at all to improve (strange illnesses, strange economic situations, etc...) and has carefully considered and opted of making a suicide, well... maybe we shouldn't be so worried in avoiding that that person suicides, as it was a careful pondered action which goes with the persons wishes, preferences and even well being, to a certain point.
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earth
Moon
the awesome
Posts: 245
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Suicide
Jun 13, 2010 17:06:44 GMT -5
Post by earth on Jun 13, 2010 17:06:44 GMT -5
if they have a mental condition its not realy anyones fault, they just happened to have that. if they chose to, then i think hat you have to consider what kind of environment they were raised in. if they had a really REALLY bad family or environment, or was put through great suffering, then i think its the other peoples fault, but if he had a good environemnt and still chose to (for some weird crazy reason) then its the persons fault.
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Suicide
Jun 13, 2010 21:10:43 GMT -5
Post by KipEnyan on Jun 13, 2010 21:10:43 GMT -5
But still, regardless of their reasoning, isn't it someone's responsibility to stop them? Shouldn't someone care about them enough to try and keep them around?
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Suicide
Jun 13, 2010 23:07:00 GMT -5
Post by The Monster on Jun 13, 2010 23:07:00 GMT -5
But still, regardless of their reasoning, isn't it someone's responsibility to stop them? Shouldn't someone care about them enough to try and keep them around? Not necessarily, for if I were placing my life or the lives of others at steak then why should I run the risk? Personally it doesn't make sense to me, for why should people risk their lives out of responsibility? When in the end they are merely sacrificing their lives for someone who simply doesn't wish to be saved. Seems like a waste of life to me...
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Suicide
Jun 13, 2010 23:28:58 GMT -5
Post by qooqǝɯɐƃ on Jun 13, 2010 23:28:58 GMT -5
Well if depression's got a grip on them, it'd be hard to get them to see a point in life. And that may lead to suicide, which would make their depression to blame, because depression ain't a choice.
Also, someone brought up the point that a human may act in a self-deprecating manner if they subconsciously believe them and their genes are of no use to society. Just take a look at some hermits If you know any.
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Suicide
Jun 14, 2010 0:03:32 GMT -5
Post by chelseeyuh on Jun 14, 2010 0:03:32 GMT -5
I feel suicide shows the person is a coward. They ran away from their problems, instead of facing it. This doesn't mean I think people who've contemplated suicide are cowards, I feel that the people who wanted to kill themselves but didn't, show courage. I've never understood this concept. I've thought about killing myself, but I've never been like, "No, I'm stronger than this," and stopped myself because of that. I just felt like I was too much of a coward to go through with it. :\ Anyway, back on topic... Sometimes there are signs and sometimes there aren't. If there are signs, then I think anyone who picks up on them should do something about it, but I don't think that necessarily means that they are to blame if the person ends up going through with it. In a situation like that, it's hard to know what to do. If there aren't signs, or even if there are and you just don't notice, there's really nothing you can do. If you lose someone close to you, you don't need the extra burden of feeling like it's your fault.
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Suicide
Jun 14, 2010 0:09:03 GMT -5
Post by rialvestro on Jun 14, 2010 0:09:03 GMT -5
If a person commits suicide, it's their business. They might be provoked by parents or society, but I say let them do what they want, even if it's as drastic as suicide. Why would you say that when you could so easily prevent them from wanting it.
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Nakor
Star
Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
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Suicide
Jun 14, 2010 0:17:43 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on Jun 14, 2010 0:17:43 GMT -5
^ Well, I wouldn't say easily.
I'm only really in favour of suicide when we're talking about terminal situations. If the person is going to die anyway, and the choice is between painless death and days of agony, let them take the easy way out. But in suicide brought on by depression (clinical or otherwise) I have to imagine that there are ways of helping the person so that they can get back on their feet and no longer desire suicide, and that such an improvement must be more desirable than simply allowing them to commit suicide because it's their choice. In short, I think allowing anyone to just kill themselves would be failing the people who need our help.
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Suicide
Jun 14, 2010 0:24:41 GMT -5
Post by Ryan on Jun 14, 2010 0:24:41 GMT -5
Everyone has a choice.
Some people make bad ones.
Some people make worse ones.
Yeah, you can sometimes change a mind but sometimes you cant. If someone provides warning signs, that means that somewhere deep down they really don't want to kill themselves. If they really do though, through and through, want to kill themselves - warning signs won't be present and there's really nothing you can do. The person who shows no warning signs has decided and even if you could detect that something was wrong - it would make no difference. Yes, it's important to catch warning signs to prevent people from throwing away THE most precious thing that they have. It won't always happen though, you wont always catch them.
As far as answering the very first question on here - no one is to blame, everyone is. Nobody should ever have a reason to commit suicide, but yet it happens because they think that there is a reason. Why would they think that? some influence made them think it. It might have been too much work, too many problems, too much abuse, too little love, or not enough caring. But not one person is to blame for these things, everyone involved is. The person who assigned the work, the person who caused the problems, the person who abused, the persons who didn't care or love, AND the person who let the work pile up, the person who didn't deal with the problems, the person who didn't stand up and get help, the person who let emotion chew them up inside, the person who decided that their life was not worth living. The human brain will not fully process that thought, it takes a long time of conditioning to work up to actually committing suicide. Instinct says survive even though emotion says give up, and in the end instinct sometimes wins, and emotion sometimes wins. I think I started rambling, but my point is that if anyone deserves blame, everyone deserves it.
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Suicide
Jun 14, 2010 4:14:01 GMT -5
Post by rialvestro on Jun 14, 2010 4:14:01 GMT -5
I tend to agree with most of the last 2 posts but work? Seriously? People have killed themselfs because of too much work.
I've attempted suicide multiple times because of pain that was inflicted on me by other people and I've been saved multiple times because of people who love me. It really is easy to prevent it and one of the times I gave no warning I just decided that at the end of my contract at work I was going to die and then a few weeks before I could I found out my brother was going to be a father. Not my real brother but a long time friend who is like a brother.
For me my life basically gets extended every time something good happens to me. I mean, my life has been saved by an unborn baby at the time but is now 3 years old. If a 3 year old boy can save someone from suicide before he's even been born then anyone can do it. And that boy has helped me more times than that, no matter if I try to hide it, even when adults don't notice he has some how managed to be able to tell when I'm feeling like crap and he'll randomly hug me when he know's I'm not feeling well.
Because of pain, fear, and other unpleasant emotions that the original person was not being able to deal with his mind developed into multiple personalities to deal with them for him. The problem with that is the personalities range from dealing with the problem by avoiding it, attempting suicide, or attacking the person or people causing the problem. His mind broke apart at the age of 8 got to a somewhat stable point in 2005 where the original was still dormant but I was the only alter present and then relapsed a few years ago after being faulsly arrested and accused of strangling the same child mentioned in the abouve paragraph. Obviously I'm not capable of hurting him when I own him my life and now feel like a failer because I couldn't protect him from whoever really did it.
I'm currently healing all over again, this time hopefully a full recovery as it's becomming apperent that the original personality is no longer dormant in my head. Metaphorically I'm going to die because as an alter I have no reason to exsist after the real person regains control of his own body. The reason I'm healing now is because of my girlfriend and partly my ex who I'm still friends with who refuses to let me commit suicide. I mean to the point where she didn't want to break up with me till I promised I wouldn't do it. I probly could of gotten her to do anything I wanted by threatening to kill myself but that would be wrong and has nothing to do with why I want to do it. Besides that I was never really happy with her like I am with my current girlfriend so I was actually kinda glad that we broke up.
My first girlfriend and I got togeather because I was desperite and she asked me out but I never really liked her that way and kinda regret having ever been with her at all. My current girlfriend I met while she was pregnant with someone elses kid and oddly enough even when she was huge I thought she was beautiful. After 2 years she randomly decided to add me on facebook. She broke up with her son's father because her son was diagnosed with Cerebral Palsy and the father didn't want a handicaped child so he sat on the computer all day playing World of Warcraft and did nothing to help his son. On facebook chat I finally addmitted to her what I was never able to say in person that being what I thought about her when I first met her.
I also have an alter to deal with being shy around girls but he deals with it by being a pervert. Apperently the first thing she ever heard me say was from him asking if he can feel her butt and apperently there's some kind of inside joke I don't understand about bat balls. I only know because she told me and I've told her that it wasn't me and that I have no memory of his interactions with her.
So there you go, there's some insight into the life of a person with MPD who is suicidal. It's just as easy to prevent my suicide as it is to cause it.
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Suicide
Jun 14, 2010 10:09:26 GMT -5
Post by ladystardust on Jun 14, 2010 10:09:26 GMT -5
But still, regardless of their reasoning, isn't it someone's responsibility to stop them? Shouldn't someone care about them enough to try and keep them around? I think that is a very dangerous path to go down, especially if you (the hypothetical 'you', not kipenyan 'you') have recently lost someone to suicide. "Should I have seen the signs? Should I have called someone? Should I have spent more time with them? Should I have said this? Should I have said that?" It would be incredibly douchy not to try and prevent someone from committing suicide if you know it's going to happen (or that there's significant risk of it happening), but to say it's your responsibility to see it coming, that you've somehow failed if you didn't . . . that's just opening the door to years of unnecessary guilt.
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Suicide
Jun 14, 2010 11:02:06 GMT -5
Post by KipEnyan on Jun 14, 2010 11:02:06 GMT -5
I've never understood this concept. I've thought about killing myself, but I've never been like, "No, I'm stronger than this," and stopped myself because of that. I just felt like I was too much of a coward to go through with it. :\ I agree with you. When I used to suffer from severe depression, I had a few flimsy attempts here and there, but it was always one cowardice or another that prevented me from following through. Couldn't get the pills down, couldn't get the blade deep enough, couldn't take the first step over the edge. It was actually after those times that I most often felt more depressed, because then my thought stream was "Hey worthless, you can't even follow through with killing yourself you chickenshit." So yeah, I agree that you can call someone who commits suicide a lot of things, but a coward isn't really one. I think that is a very dangerous path to go down, especially if you (the hypothetical 'you', not kipenyan 'you') have recently lost someone to suicide. "Should I have seen the signs? Should I have called someone? Should I have spent more time with them? Should I have said this? Should I have said that?" It would be incredibly douchy not to try and prevent someone from committing suicide if you know it's going to happen (or that there's significant risk of it happening), but to say it's your responsibility to see it coming, that you've somehow failed if you didn't . . . that's just opening the door to years of unnecessary guilt.
I think there should be a distinction drawn between responsibility and useless guilt. If you're exceedingly close to someone, and let's assume they show some sorts of warning signs, and you ignore them or are too careless to take note of them, and they kill themselves, you have some serious responsibility in that matter. Should you acknowledge that some of that fault goes to you? Absolutely. It's selfish and disgraceful to the person who died not to. Should you self-loathe for the rest of your life over it? Absolutely not. It's selfish and disgraceful to the person who died to.
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Suicide
Jun 14, 2010 20:04:52 GMT -5
Post by ladystardust on Jun 14, 2010 20:04:52 GMT -5
I think there should be a distinction drawn between responsibility and useless guilt. If you're exceedingly close to someone, and let's assume they show some sorts of warning signs, and you ignore them or are too careless to take note of them, and they kill themselves, you have some serious responsibility in that matter. Should you acknowledge that some of that fault goes to you? Absolutely. It's selfish and disgraceful to the person who died not to. Should you self-loathe for the rest of your life over it? Absolutely not. It's selfish and disgraceful to the person who died to. I believe your situation to be entirely plausible, but I also believe that occasionally, warning signs are easily missed. There are times when surviving loved ones refuse to believe that someone took their own life, because they were "so happy," and "loved life." Someone intent on taking their own life may be able to hide known warning signs, falsifying behaviour so that no one would think to try and stop them or talk them out of it. What I find to be especially dangerous is that one can't objectively acknowledge that they may have failed to recognize a behaviour or act as a sign that someone they loved was at risk. There is no "Hey, my bad. Oops." To feel even partly responsible for a loved one's death is utter agony, which is why it is unwise to stare down that hole. Surviving loved ones are strongly encouraged to keep telling themselves that there was nothing they could have done, that the deceased would have found a way no matter what, because the alternative leads nowhere good.
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Cortney
Star
[AWD:0c15]The Objectioner
The Bown
Posts: 885
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Suicide
Jun 15, 2010 2:50:22 GMT -5
Post by Cortney on Jun 15, 2010 2:50:22 GMT -5
If a person commits suicide, it's their business. They might be provoked by parents or society, but I say let them do what they want, even if it's as drastic as suicide. So the innumerable effects that it has on the people around them should be negated just because it was a "personal choice"? So you should make your decisions based on how it will affect everybody else and not yourself?
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