Why I Still Believe in Jesus

[Gesh]

I've had a very difficult time keeping my mouth shut the past few days, when Dan posted videos concerning religion, and he was arguing (so to speak) against creationism and all that... so I'm going to try and get all my thoughts down here and now.

First thing - creationism vs. evolution. I understand that it is very, very probable that evolution occurred. In fact, I myself believe that it did happen. It only makes sense. But yet, I believe completely in God and Jesus and everything the Bible says. How is this, when it clearly states in Genesis that God made Adam out of dust, and that he was the first man? Well, here's what I think. There are many, many examples of figurative statements in the Bible (parables, metaphors, etc.), so who's to say that the "making Adam out of dust" thing isn't figurative? When living things die, they eventually decompose and become part of the dirt. So, is it not possible that in saying God made Adam out of dust, it was really speaking of an evolutionary process? I know that was brief and not explained very well, but I have a lot of things I want to cover in this post. So. Anyway. As for Adam being the first man...

We all know the classic question, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Well, one day I found a video online that jokingly explained why the egg came first - chickens evolved from some ancient creature, and eventually it got to the point where an animal 99.999999% chicken laid an egg, and from that egg hatched a 100% chicken. But this scenario gave me the idea, that maybe Adam was the first "real" man? 100%, has the genetics (or whatever they're called, I'm not good with biology) that a true human does, rather than the cavemen living thousands of years ago who were still "evolving"...

Now! The real questions, not so much concerning the creation of the universe, but rather, science vs. religion as a whole.

Many people coming from a scientific perspective tell religious people that religion does not have much of a place in explaining the universe, if any at all, and that the knowledge we have because of science comes from proven theories, laws, etc... so therefore, because it is proven, logical, reasonable, and has TONS of evidence to support it, science is the true "definer" of the universe. It always has the last word, and so religious people must come up with "excuses" as to why their beliefs still hold true as new scientific discoveries are made.

BUT, although belief in Jesus and God may be a leap of faith, it is not totally blind. It may not have hard facts to support it and back it up, but when you take a step back and put all scientific reasoning aside, and just ask yourself, "Why?", it may become clear.

How likely is it that texts from thousands of years ago, written by numerous different people from different time periods, predict the coming of Christ exactly as it happened thousands of years later? And how likely is it that the accounts of that coming of Christ all pretty much say the same things, despite them also being written by numerous different people? And how likely is it that a solitary man would have sparked the widest, most popular religion in all of human history without having performed the miracles described in scripture, but rather with words alone? And how likely is it that if the Bible were a hoax, it has stood the test of time and not been disproved? And how likely is it that this world we live on is at just the right temperature and has just the right resources we need to survive, when all other planets we've found have no signs of life? How likely is it that this planet would have gone through the evolutionary process it did, that was precise and exact enough to make life possible here on Earth? How likely is it that we are at the very top of the food chain if God did not intend for us to have authority over animals and on this planet (though don't get me wrong here, I still love nature and think we should take very good care of it, especially since we need to be good stewards)? How likely is it that whenever I ask for a sign as to whether God exists or is with me, that sign occurs, every time, when these signs I ask for would definitely not happen on a regular basis? How do you explain all the "happy accidents" in the world? How do you explain luck? How do you explain the miracles that still happen today?

You scientists and mathematicians are always using probability and talking about whether something could possibly be, depending on how probable it is. So tell me, how likely are all those things that I mentioned above, if there is no God, or Jesus never came to Earth, or the Bible is untrue?

Romans 1:20

So yeah... debate away!

[Yokailo]

I absolutely agree with your first statement. The "Adam was created out of dust" could just be a reference to the very first bacteria from which we all evolved.. Just stating "God created something living out of the stardust of the big bang", which is what I personally believe.

Then the second question: how does a single person inspire so many people to write about him?
I think Jesus was a brilliant speecher, to the likeness of ML King with a hint of Gandhi. He was someone with a strong belief and he wanted to share it with the world- and he was good at it, so people wrote about him.
I do think, though, that a lot of the Bible was added after Jesus was declared to be the son of God- because you'll find that none of the original books (as far as they are left) mention him to be divine: only inspiring.
So I think that Jesus did exist, he did live and he did travel around trying to make the world a better place: it's just that he's not so much holy as he is inspiring to a lot of people, regardless of whether or not he is the son of God.

The Bible still exists because the very first people found it an inspiring book, by which they could live their lives to the most kind and beautiful inspiration- and after that it has been given to the new generations and as such has stayed with us.

If you believe in evolution, you must believe that 'random' changes and things happen- and so luck and happy accidents (and sometimes even miracles, which are most of the time just about being at the right place at the right time with the right skills) are explained.

I hope I made my point clear. ^^

[Celeste]

Okay so the first is very good explanation in how the bible follows evelution. BUT the last part ( And how likely is it that this world we live on is at just the right temperature and has just the right resources we need to survive, when all other planets we've found have no signs of life?) That's the reason why there is life on this planet and no others the life was able to evolve and continue were it couldn't do that anywere else.

How do you explain all the "happy accidents" in the world? How do you explain luck? How do you explain the miracles that still happen today?
I explain all the "out of the ordinary" probibility. lets just say that normal thing are 999/1000 there's still that 1 thing left. I do relize the numbers are much bigger but still

"And as for diff ppl in diff times with the same ideas"
here is why this happens. People back then, hell, even now get ideas based off of other ideas make them alittle diffrent and call it there own. Now im not saying people are stealing ideas im saying that subconsiously they are. Supose my friend told me about the simulation theroey If i take some information from that and some information i already know it IS my idea and it IS what i belive in.

By the way i do relise there was alot of grammer issues and spellign blah blah blah.

[kadie]

Mar 30, 2010 15:21:01 GMT -5 Gesh said:

rather than the cavemen living thousands of years ago who were still "evolving"...

There is one problem with your theory we still are evolving

Kadie

[Gesh]

Mar 30, 2010 15:57:49 GMT -5 kadie said:

Mar 30, 2010 15:21:01 GMT -5 Gesh said:

rather than the cavemen living thousands of years ago who were still "evolving"...

There is one problem with your theory we still are evolving

Kadie

Ha, yeah, I realize that. I tried to explain the best I could, it didn't work out it some places. xD

I do think, though, that a lot of the Bible was added after Jesus was declared to be the son of God- because you'll find that none of the original books (as far as they are left) mention him to be divine: only inspiring.

Yokailo, would you mind enlightening me on where you found this information, that the original texts called him inspiring and not the son of God in any location?

If you believe in evolution, you must believe that 'random' changes and things happen- and so luck and happy accidents (and sometimes even miracles, which are most of the time just about being at the right place at the right time with the right skills) are explained.

Actually, I believe that God already has a plan set out for everyone, and that is why I do not believe in luck or coincidence.

Thank you for your contribution! You had some good arguments, I thought.

But just another point then (referring to all who responded)... what about Jesus rising from the grave? People saw that for themselves, more than one person, and recorded it. The most amazing of all his miracles that were also witnessed by more than one person and recorded.

[Gesh]

I also edited my original post and added in a point that I had intended to put in there, but forgot.

"How likely is it that we are at the very top of the food chain if God did not intend for us to have authority over animals and on this planet (though don't get me wrong here, I still love nature and think we should take very good care of it, especially since we need to be good stewards)?"

[shinigami345]

I believe in Jesus because I have felt his direct influence on my life kind of like how Saul of Tarssus had to be blinded and have his sight returned to be come St. Paul one of the most influential members of early Christianity. I know that it is God and not something science can explain because I know science and I keep getting back to God.

[Joey]

I always learned in a Catholic school that the story of Creation was based on fact (garden of eden, Adam and Eve, Original Sin) but wasnt neccesarily a completely factual story as the rest of the bible is. It is to be dicipherd diferent ways to understand its meaning. And as a good man I know always says: "Coincidence is God's way of staying Anonymous"

[Gesh]

Mar 30, 2010 17:50:17 GMT -5 shinigami345 said:

I believe in Jesus because I have felt his direct influence on my life kind of like how Saul of Tarssus had to be blinded and have his sight returned to be come St. Paul one of the most influential members of early Christianity. I know that it is God and not something science can explain because I know science and I keep getting back to God.

Very eloquently stated, I feel very much the same way you do. Unfortunately, that's rarely enough to convince scientists and whatnot, so the approach I took was the original post in this discussion. But all the same, one of the biggest reasons I, too, believe in God is because once you find him, you can just feel that it's the truth. That he is the truth.

[Gesh]

Mar 30, 2010 17:53:57 GMT -5 Joey said:

I always learned in a Catholic school that the story of Creation was based on fact (garden of eden, Adam and Eve, Original Sin) but wasnt neccesarily a completely factual story as the rest of the bible is. It is to be dicipherd diferent ways to understand its meaning. And as a good man I know always says: "Coincidence is God's way of staying Anonymous"

Yes, I couldn't agree more, particularly with that last line. That's a very good quote, I must say.

[hey light]

Mar 30, 2010 17:50:17 GMT -5 shinigami345 said:

I believe in Jesus because I have felt his direct influence on my life kind of like how Saul of Tarssus had to be blinded and have his sight returned to be come St. Paul one of the most influential members of early Christianity. I know that it is God and not something science can explain because I know science and I keep getting back to God.

Well, if god is not something science can prove, then he doesn't, and can't exist. Science is pretty much the only way to really prove something, beyond any shadow of a doubt. The only way to get me to agree that something is true is by showing me detailed, real evidance, backed up by sound, scientific arguments.

[Gesh]

Mar 30, 2010 18:03:50 GMT -5 hey light said:

Mar 30, 2010 17:50:17 GMT -5 shinigami345 said:

I believe in Jesus because I have felt his direct influence on my life kind of like how Saul of Tarssus had to be blinded and have his sight returned to be come St. Paul one of the most influential members of early Christianity. I know that it is God and not something science can explain because I know science and I keep getting back to God.

Well, if god is not something science can prove, then he doesn't, and can't exist. Science is pretty much the only way to really prove something, beyond any shadow of a doubt. The only way to get me to agree that something is true is by showing me detailed, real evidance, backed up by sound, scientific arguments.

Well keep in mind, that whoever or whatever created the universe (let's call it God), was obviously unimaginably powerful to create an infinite universe (even if it isn't infinite, it's still really big). And science, in my mind, is man's attempt to explain God and his creation. (by the way, don't get me wrong here, I love science, it's my favorite subject ) And science was something invented and created by man, therefore it is limited to the stretches and comprehension of man's mind. Therefore, if an infinite and powerful creator who was around since before the beginning of time does in fact exist, there is no way for science - a limited creation invented by limited minds - to prove it. Whether the creator exists or not. So don't think that God doesn't exist /just/ because science can't prove it. Because if God does exist, science still can't prove it.

[shinigami345]

I actually figured this out look at the wiki for the Big Bang en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
The Big Bang requires you to assume a few things listed on there but I'll copy for the people that dont want to go there.

Underlying assumptions
The Big Bang theory depends on two major assumptions: the universality of physical laws, and the Cosmological Principle. The cosmological principle states that on large scales the Universe is homogeneous and isotropic.

These ideas were initially taken as postulates, but today there are efforts to test each of them. For example, the first assumption has been tested by observations showing that largest possible deviation of the fine structure constant over much of the age of the Universe is of order 10−5.[37] Also, General Relativity has passed stringent tests on the scale of the solar system and binary stars while extrapolation to cosmological scales has been validated by the empirical successes of various aspects of the Big Bang theory.[notes 3]

If the large-scale Universe appears isotropic as viewed from Earth, the cosmological principle can be derived from the simpler Copernican Principle, which states that there is no preferred (or special) observer or vantage point. To this end, the cosmological principle has been confirmed to a level of 10−5 via observations of the CMB.[notes 4] The Universe has been measured to be homogeneous on the largest scales at the 10% level.[38]

So in theory if one could prove that the universe isn't one of these assumptions then wouldn't the theory not work(It already doesn't because the starting point has no clear origin and thus all of this /must/ be from a deity but to beat a dead horse I'll continue). Another thing to keep in mind when studying the Big Bang is that it is only a /theory/ I cannot stress the word theory enough when you believe and stick to it as if it were a law then you forefit your right to be a free thinker and become a zombie. Let me real quickly explain the difference between a theory and a law for those that don't know. A theory explains something such as the Big Bang explaining how the universe came to be. A law is based off of an observable thing in nature such as Gravity. I encourage you to read through that Big Bang wiki and explore the other branches of it. If you want to learn more about Christianity I would be glad to entertain your thaughts if you give specific questions.

[Nakor]

I have to say I agree with the most part, only my deduction (similar to Dan's) is that Jesus was a very, very good speaker and a very, very good philosopher with a lot of good ideas about how to live one's life (One has to forgive his comments about slavery and women being possessions as the culture of the time; it is vastly outweighed by how far ahead of his time he was in other areas. He even touched on and encouraged the separation of church and state.) but was not God nor the son thereof. You mention the bible having stood the test of time and not been disproved, but it's actually fairly easy to disprove things in the bible simply because it contradicts itself -- a lot.

Keep in mind when discussing luck and miracles two things.

One: that there are subjective and objective odds. The subjective odds of something exactly like us appearing on this specific planet were incredibly low. But the objective odds of something as complex as us appearing somewhere in the universe were very high. It's much like the lottery -- odds are someone will win it, but no matter who does it will seem like a miracle to that person. Well, some super complex life form was bound to appear somewhere in the universe, and we were the lucky winners. No matter what creature it was and where it was the subjective odds would be equally unlikely, so this is not a sign of there being a god or a miracle having taken place. Life was likely, but any particular sort was equally unlikely. Draw a number from 1-1000000 and getting a result is certain, but every result is equally unlikely; drawing a '1' is no more of a miracle than drawing '260419' would be. Both are equally unlikely.

Two: It is incredibly unlikely for nothing incredibly unlikely to ever happen. I know that sounds backward, but with millions of surgeries and medical operations happening, something with very low chances of occurring is bound to happen sooner or later. Take someone with a 1/10,000 chance of survival. Subjectively, their odds are terrible. But objectively, there are thousands of people with those terrible odds over time, and eventually one or two of them will pull through. If you draw numbers at random from 1-10000 repeatedly, eventually you will draw a 1. (Your odds of drawing at least a single 1 in 10000 tries is approximately 63.2%. The odds of drawing at least a single 1 in 100000 tries is over 99.995%.) This isn't a miracle; it's just the nature of randomness that this will happen.

[Ricky]

Every point you made, and why its wrong:

Mar 30, 2010 15:21:01 GMT -5 Gesh said:

It clearly states in Genesis that God made Adam out of dust, and that he was the first man? Well, here's what I think. There are many, many examples of figurative statements in the Bible (parables, metaphors, etc.), so who's to say that the "making Adam out of dust" thing isn't figurative?

Who is to say when they talk about God, they aren't speaking figurative too... Maybe the God they speak of is only ther "right thing to do, or moral compass"

Mar 30, 2010 15:21:01 GMT -5 Gesh said:

How likely is it that texts from thousands of years ago, written by numerous different people from different time periods, predict the coming of Christ exactly as it happened thousands of years later?

The only mention of this texts is in the bible. Its like if i wrote a book today and state in my book references of books backing mine up, but those books didn't exist...

Mar 30, 2010 15:21:01 GMT -5 Gesh said:

And how likely is it that the accounts of that coming of Christ all pretty much say the same things, despite them also being written by numerous different people?

They weren't only written by different people but in very different time periods. Do you think its going to be hard for you to write a similar account to another person that lived a hundred years ago and their book is famous. I think not...

Mar 30, 2010 15:21:01 GMT -5 Gesh said:

And how likely is it that a solitary man would have sparked the widest, most popular religion in all of human history without having performed the miracles described in scripture, but rather with words alone?

yea, you are right that has never happened before... oh wait, what about gandhi, who liberated a nation of people using only words and peace? who by the way didn't use miracles and was part of Hinduism

Mar 30, 2010 15:21:01 GMT -5 Gesh said:

And how likely is it that if the Bible were a hoax, it has stood the test of time and not been disproved?

For thousands of years we thought that the earth was flat, that stood the test of time... then like everything else that is flawed it was replaced by true facts

Mar 30, 2010 15:21:01 GMT -5 Gesh said:

And how likely is it that this world we live on is at just the right temperature and has just the right resources we need to survive, when all other planets we've found have no signs of life?

actually the only reason we haven't found life its because we can't travel far enough because the universe is too immense. Also there are several theories that indicate that there has already been life in this planet, and that mars already had life. The problem is that we are too young in universal terms to have seen anything.

Mar 30, 2010 15:21:01 GMT -5 Gesh said:

How do you explain all the "happy accidents" in the world? How do you explain luck? How do you explain the miracles that still happen today?

You must admit that for every "happy accident" in the world there are horrible catastrophic events that happen too... Torture, Murder, Natural events that kill millions. Some of which include people being buried alive by earthquakes suffering for hours and then dying. Do you think they deserved the pain and suffering? because apparently your god did...

Mar 30, 2010 15:21:01 GMT -5 Gesh said:

Romans 1:20

You believe in everything the bible says right?
Deuteronomy 23:1 (hope nothing happens to your nuts)

Mar 30, 2010 16:23:50 GMT -5 Gesh said:

Actually, I believe that God already has a plan set out for everyone, and that is why I do not believe in luck or coincidence.

God apparently has a plan, which we cannot relay from... which is why you don't believe in luck or coincidence. Which means that you don't believe that we have free will... So if someday you turn out to be in a situation of kill or be killed and you kill someone then God intended for you to be a murderer... noted...

Mar 30, 2010 16:23:50 GMT -5 Gesh said:

what about Jesus rising from the grave? People saw that for themselves, more than one person, and recorded it. The most amazing of all his miracles that were also witnessed by more than one person and recorded.

I'll answer using your own words "would you mind enlightening me on where you found this information?" where are those original texts where the records are found? All there is is the bible, and I already told you the books were written hundreds of years apart, and there are no historical records of Jesus having even existed or most of the things mentioned in the bible...

If an infinite and powerful creator who was around since before the beginning of time does in fact exist, there is no way for science - a limited creation invented by limited minds - to prove it. Whether the creator exists or not. So don't think that God doesn't exist /just/ because science can't prove it. Because if God does exist, science still can't prove it.

Science is not an attempt to explain god, but is things we learn from observation of the world and the universe.

Science is not something invented and created by man. Since it is not something physical. Its as said before "observation". Therefore if you are saying that we can't observe God, then in fact at this moment it is more likely he doesn't exist... or is very different than what is described by your bible and therefore you are wrong.

Also something less powerful can still triumph over something more powerful didn't you read about david and goliath? lol

[Lex]

I agree with Dan's perspective on this from his "My Thoughts on Jesus" video.

[hey light]

Mar 30, 2010 18:13:52 GMT -5 Gesh said:

Well keep in mind, that whoever or whatever created the universe (let's call it God), was obviously unimaginably powerful to create an infinite universe (even if it isn't infinite, it's still really big). And science, in my mind, is man's attempt to explain God and his creation. (by the way, don't get me wrong here, I love science, it's my favorite subject ) And science was something invented and created by man, therefore it is limited to the stretches and comprehension of man's mind. Therefore, if an infinite and powerful creator who was around since before the beginning of time does in fact exist, there is no way for science - a limited creation invented by limited minds - to prove it. Whether the creator exists or not. So don't think that God doesn't exist /just/ because science can't prove it. Because if God does exist, science still can't prove it.

Actually, it isn't. Science is just a way of gathering data, and then trying to piece it together into a theory. That data doesn't have to make sense at all. Do you understand wave-partice duality, where particles are points or waves, but still the same thing? Do you understand the Heisnberg principle, whereby the particle's state isn't "decided" until you observe it?

[shinigami345]

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2023:1&version=ESV

So? Chrisitians don't do that kind of thing and besides thats old testament law Christians are bound by new testament law.

[Lex]

Mar 30, 2010 18:28:32 GMT -5 shinigami345 said:

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2023:1&version=ESV

So? Chrisitians don't do that kind of thing and besides thats old testament law Christians are bound by new testament law.

Yet, most Christians in America cannot understand that concept.

[Ricky]

Mar 30, 2010 18:29:33 GMT -5 Lex said:

Mar 30, 2010 18:28:32 GMT -5 shinigami345 said:

www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2023:1&version=ESV

So? Chrisitians don't do that kind of thing and besides thats old testament law Christians are bound by new testament law.

Yet, most Christians in America cannot understand that concept.

The concept that God can be wrong sometimes and change his mind about things... well that sounds very human of him doesn't it?