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Post by fanofeverythingz on Mar 31, 2010 19:48:44 GMT -5
That was very insightful, and while I disagree with some of the things you say (for example, Adam and Eve didn't speak English, they spoke an ancient language that was later translated), I also agree with you on many aspects.[/quote]
Yikes, sorry. It was 5 in the morning and my head wasn't on straight yet. Totally didn't mean to say English.
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Post by UnfairBear on Mar 31, 2010 20:41:02 GMT -5
How do you explain all the "happy accidents" in the world? How do you explain luck? How do you explain the miracles that still happen today? It pisses me off to NO end when people say this. Because they chalk good things up to God and bad things up to people. Earthquake kills millions and it's because the buildings werent strong enough. Rescue workers save thousands of survivors and that's "God's work". What the hell? Have a little faith in PEOPLE, for once, would you? But yeah, if happy coincidences are God's fault then so are unhappy ones. You can't just pick and choose.
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Post by Ricky on Apr 1, 2010 10:01:55 GMT -5
Ahh! Yes, I came back, just to see how people would respond, with absolutely no intention of replying. But since I see that people took my last post the wrong way, I definitely want to get my reputation cleared. I DO NOT THINK THAT BLACKS ARE INFERIOR. I agree that this is totally racist! I'm saying that was the opinion of many whites in the 1600's or whenever it was. THAT IS NOT MY OPINION, THAT WAS THE OPINION OF OTHER PEOPLE. ... Sheesh. Yea, but you were saying that was the opinion of God...
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Gesh
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Mishap Molly Cordell
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Post by Gesh on Apr 1, 2010 13:44:11 GMT -5
There, I modified the post so that it only says slaves, and not inferior. That is a more accurate depiction anyhow. And please don't start debating over this post, because it isn't meant to be an argument in any way... besides, I won't see it anyway, now that I've made it more clear what my post (two posts ago) meant.
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Philosoraptor
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dangling prepositions is something up with which I shall not put
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Post by Philosoraptor on Apr 2, 2010 9:42:16 GMT -5
But, I mean, you were correct. That is what the Bible implies. Ridiculous as it may be.
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Post by PunkPlaidKitty on Apr 2, 2010 19:32:47 GMT -5
Because it seems that the biggest obsticle of Dan's is creationism stating that the world is 6000yro I want to bring up my argument. My argument for creationism has always been, who said God's week is the same as ours? Who said one of God's days is 24 earth hours? Because it's obviously a few billion years. After that the time line irons out. "Let there be light" -last time I checked explosions are pretty bright(the big bang). Science backs up the story of creation when evolution explains that there was the earth, then a period of slow progressing evolution, then there were plants, another break, then fish, then birds, another break, then mammals, a break, and then modern humans.
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Post by Lex on Apr 2, 2010 20:47:51 GMT -5
Because it seems that the biggest obsticle of Dan's is creationism stating that the world is 6000yro I want to bring up my argument. My argument for creationism has always been, who said God's week is the same as ours? Who said one of God's days is 24 earth hours? Because it's obviously a few billion years. After that the time line irons out. "Let there be light" -last time I checked explosions are pretty bright(the big bang). Science backs up the story of creation when evolution explains that there was the earth, then a period of slow progressing evolution, then there were plants, another break, then fish, then birds, another break, then mammals, a break, and then modern humans. I too considered this, until I realized how ridiculously far-fetched and stupid it is.
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Post by Jake on Apr 2, 2010 20:50:48 GMT -5
Because it seems that the biggest obsticle of Dan's is creationism stating that the world is 6000yro I want to bring up my argument. My argument for creationism has always been, who said God's week is the same as ours? Who said one of God's days is 24 earth hours? Because it's obviously a few billion years. After that the time line irons out. "Let there be light" -last time I checked explosions are pretty bright(the big bang). Science backs up the story of creation when evolution explains that there was the earth, then a period of slow progressing evolution, then there were plants, another break, then fish, then birds, another break, then mammals, a break, and then modern humans. I too considered this, until I realized how ridiculously far-fetched and stupid it is. I actually think she raises a fairly good point here with the 24 earth hours to billion years thing! Yes it may sound far-fetched but I think the whole point of the Bible is that it goes pretty deep. Oh, and do remember that we're trying to think "impossibly big" here!
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Post by Johncoyne on Apr 2, 2010 22:50:43 GMT -5
Why I believe in Jesus:
I have considered not believing in God or Jesus, but I was raised as a Catholic, and I have fear. I have fear that if I don't believe in God, He will be disappointed in me. It really doesn't make sense. In fact, I AM a zombie with religion and I'm not afraid to admit it.
For the sake of argument, let's pretend that God doesn't exist.
What is the hurt in believing in Him and praising Him?
Are you losing anything by going to Church?
Is anyone getting hurt by believing in Jesus?
My point is; even if He doesn't exist, believing in Him makes you a stronger person and inspires you to do great things. I have talked to God and it has revealed things about myself to me that would never have occurred to me.
Well, that's my take.
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T3CHN0B4BBL3
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Self-proclaimed zombie, trying to a find cure
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Post by T3CHN0B4BBL3 on Apr 2, 2010 23:18:49 GMT -5
Why I believe in Jesus: I have considered not believing in God or Jesus, but I was raised as a Catholic, and I have fear. I have fear that if I don't believe in God, He will be disappointed in me. It really doesn't make sense. In fact, I AM a zombie with religion and I'm not afraid to admit it. For the sake of argument, let's pretend that God doesn't exist. What is the hurt in believing in Him and praising Him? Are you losing anything by going to Church? Is anyone getting hurt by believing in Jesus? My point is; even if He doesn't exist, believing in Him makes you a stronger person and inspires you to do great things. I have talked to God and it has revealed things about myself to me that would never have occurred to me. Well, that's my take. If God really is all-knowing, don't you think He would see my effort as insincere and I was only following him because I didn't want to go to Hell? As a Christian who has been questioning and doing a lot of soul searching lately, I have considered the whole "what could it hurt" thing. I'm not necessarily giving up on my faith, just putting it on hold until I find some answers.
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Post by Johncoyne on Apr 2, 2010 23:22:30 GMT -5
That's a really good point, Technobabble... I'll have to sleep on that.
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Nakor
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Non-Prophet
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Post by Nakor on Apr 3, 2010 2:20:01 GMT -5
@ the 24-hours-to-billions-of-years argument: Frankly, that's just semantics. If you believe that god created everything before the big bang, then I disagree but have no beef with you. The fact is, creationists believe that god created everything 6000 of our years ago, which directly contradicts facts we now know due to science, and that I (and Dan) have a beef with. Why I believe in Jesus: I have considered not believing in God or Jesus, but I was raised as a Catholic, and I have fear. I have fear that if I don't believe in God, He will be disappointed in me. It really doesn't make sense. In fact, I AM a zombie with religion and I'm not afraid to admit it. For the sake of argument, let's pretend that God doesn't exist. What is the hurt in believing in Him and praising Him? Are you losing anything by going to Church? Is anyone getting hurt by believing in Jesus? My point is; even if He doesn't exist, believing in Him makes you a stronger person and inspires you to do great things. I have talked to God and it has revealed things about myself to me that would never have occurred to me. Well, that's my take. From the top, what is the hurt in believing/praising him/Jesus and lost by going to church? Well, this depends on how far you take it. You probably donate money to your church -- or depending on the church it may be a tithe or fee (I'm not familiar enough with the various branches to know which faiths have which methods of payment). Either way, that money is going to pay for the building, ministers and so forth. While giving away money can be a very good, altruistic thing to do, are there perhaps more worthy things to spend it on if god doesn't really exist? Animal shelters, starving people, all sorts of charities do good work that is verifiable in the here and now. Aren't they more worthy recipients? Then there's time. Now, I don't know how it is for you, if church is more than just a religious thing, but also a social event, then you may not see it as a drain on your time, which is okay. Nothing wrong with being social, quite the opposite! But for many people it's a couple (give or take) hours that they really only offer up because they feel it's right to do. If god doesn't exist, that's a couple hours a week that are wasted, that could be used toward things you actually want or need. (Perhaps that socializing if you're not in church. Maybe get some things around the house done. Or maybe some volunteer work at a charity. There are a lot of things two hours a week could get done!) Finally, there's how you live your life. Some people's day to day lives really wouldn't change much if they suddenly stopped believing. There are a lot of the "casually religious" for whom their religion doesn't impact them much. But for others, they may make decisions based on religious tenets that they believe only due to the church. Religion may lead you to think that some things are not okay, which you would like to do, or at least for which you wouldn't want to shun others for. Religion may ask of you to do things that you'd prefer not to. Most religions don't tend to push into personal lives much, but it does happen. But perhaps the most important reason is the pursuit of truth, and your reasons for believing. A lot of people believe a lot of things simply because they really, really wish they were true (such as the gambler who hopes his last dollar will win the jackpot so badly, he bets it because he has convinced himself it will) or because they fear that it may be true (much like you've described). But neither of these, to me at least, seem to be honest to one's self. People should believe in a thing because they actually think that it is true. Now, I don't use this to argue that nobody should believe in god, but rather, if you can honestly say to yourself that fear or desire is your sole or primary motivator, then you may be deceiving yourself, and changing that in for self-honesty can lift a huge weight off your shoulders. Finally, you mention that god makes you stronger and inspires you. But if god does not exist, then where is that strength and inspiration coming from? It's coming from you. Some people think they would be lost without god, but that's at least not how it worked out for me. As my beliefs slowly turned from United Christianity to non-denominational Christianity to a vague sort of deism and finally to atheism, I actually felt a great sense of relief and understanding. Everything that I couldn't rationalize before started making a lot more sense. And there are a lot of things in this world that can be inspiring and strengthening, from heroes of any sort to friends and loved ones, to your own desires and motivations. As for talking to god, I will openly admit, there are things that I do not speak of to anyone; just a very few things literally nobody knows about me. Before my change I would speak of them to god. Now I simply think or talk through them with myself. After all, in reality that's what I was doing before; I think there is no god, and I certainly never heard any answers, so the only conclusions I could come to were my own. If you still need those "Dear God" conversations -- which is perfectly understandable -- consider the fact that "Dear Diary" can listen just as honestly and allow you to think over your words just as well. Or really, "Dear ____" -- it can be anyone -- and you don't really have to share. It's a little like using make-believe for your inspiration, only you're being honest to yourself about it. Over the course of my change I came to see that religion can strip people of a lot. It doesn't always seek to do so, but many of the religious give up all their accomplishments to their god, and leave no pride for themselves. In fact, any pride at all is often seen as a sin. Well, it's certainly possible to be too prideful, but at the same time a little pride in yourself when you do a great thing is more than okay, it's deserved. It can motivate you -- and here's the real bonus -- it can motivate others to be like you, and try to achieve the same great things. Anyway, I've gone into a bit of a rant -- again -- so I apologize for the length. I hear Pascal's Wager (your post was very much like it -- "why not believe in god since you stand to gain everything and lose nothing") a lot, and while I often see the logical flaws in it pointed out (which god, what are the odds, insincere faith, god should be understanding of the lack of his evidence, and so forth), I feel that it's often overlooked that there really are very important, personal things you are giving up if you stick with a religion that you, personally, of your own decision and thoughts, don't truly believe in. In the words of Terry Goodkind, "Wilfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self." Most of this, of course, is my own personal thoughts based on my own personal experiences of being raised Christian, questioning it and over the course of what turned out to be about 5-6 years, eventually becoming an atheist after a series of slow, progressive changes to my faith. I am certain that not everyone will think the exact same way as me, so I only hope that my words can inspire the kind of thought that will let you find your own way. I do think, however, that if fear is your real reason for remaining faithful to a church that you otherwise don't believe in, you will feel a lot freer being honest with yourself, and hey; the facts are on our side. Oh, and one last thing. Take your time with it, eh? Don't force an answer out. Just think, as much as you need to and want to. Even today, I've never really stopped thinking. While I've been an atheist for four years, my exact stance on many specific aspects of it have changed a lot -- even in the time this forum has been up they've evolved a bit. So don't worry if you don't have an answer today or tomorrow or this year. Just think, and be honest with yourself. Those are the most important things. Er... sorry again about the length. And I hope this post didn't make too many people angry....
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Post by PunkPlaidKitty on Apr 3, 2010 8:40:59 GMT -5
Because it seems that the biggest obstacle of Dan's is creationism stating that the world is 6000yro I want to bring up my argument. My argument for creationism has always been, who said God's week is the same as ours? Who said one of God's days is 24 earth hours? Because it's obviously a few billion years. After that the time line irons out. "Let there be light" -last time I checked explosions are pretty bright(the big bang). Science backs up the story of creation when evolution explains that there was the earth, then a period of slow progressing evolution, then there were plants, another break, then fish, then birds, another break, then mammals, a break, and then modern humans. I too considered this, until I realized how ridiculously far-fetched and stupid it is. How stupid is it to consider that to a being that has been around since the beginning of time a few billion years is comparable to what we would understand as a day? A good example is that scientists actually use our calendar year to explain the idea of evolution. It's in my Holt Biology textbook. It basically says if the 4.5 billion years that the earth has been around for are condensed into one earth year, modern humans would have been around for the very last second of Dec 31. How is what God is doing by explaining He made the universe in seven days any different? It's a simple technique to help us understand something so ridiculously huge that we couldn't truly even grasp otherwise. @ the 24-hours-to-billions-of-years argument: Frankly, that's just semantics. If you believe that god created everything before the big bang, then I disagree but have no beef with you. The fact is, creationists believe that god created everything 6000 of our years ago, which directly contradicts facts we now know due to science, and that I (and Dan) have a beef with. I believe in creationism but I don't think God created the universe 6000 years ago. That would be stupid. Looking tons of evidence in the face and pretending it isn't there. When I looked up creationism on wikipedia I couldn't find anywhere where it said 6000 years ago the universe was created so I "Ctrl+F"-ed it. One match. Martin Luther brought up the idea that the days were literal. He was a Prodestant leader; he was not representing the whole Christian population. Furthermore just because he proposed it doesn't mean all Prodestants have to agree with him, or anyone for that matter. He didn't know what we know now. The evidence hadn't been as strong and steadfast. It is no where set in stone that to be a creationist you have to believe that the universe was created 6000 years ago. I obviously don't and I know I'm not the only one.
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Post by Johncoyne on Apr 3, 2010 9:24:20 GMT -5
Nakor- You brought up so many valid points, so I'm not even gonna try and quote your post and prove you wrong. I just really need to think things out before posting anything else about this topic.
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Nakor
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Non-Prophet
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Post by Nakor on Apr 3, 2010 11:03:01 GMT -5
PunkPlaidKitty: Very well, to be specific Creationism is "a doctrine or theory holding that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing and usually in the way described in Genesis" (Mirriam-Webster). "Creationists" are those who believe this happened, and the vast majority of them argue for a young earth. If you believe a god created things, but that it happened before the big bang (or in some other way that doesn't actively contradict science) then your belief is more accurately described as Intelligent Design.
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RabbitWho
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Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 3, 2010 19:03:43 GMT -5
I'm sure that the Adam and Eve thing was a metaphor, i think there are some really beautiful powerful metaphors in that book that tell you a lot about human nature and how we understand the world. I don't think the creationist question is an important one, I agree with the blue office chair, the question of the resurrection is much more important. Life after death = is there a meaning of life or not, so we have souls or not. That's the purpose of religion, explaining why we are here and where we are going, not how we are here. How doesn't matter on a spiritual level. Creation is just a meandering whim of a thought, as is the Big Bang. It's not something that should keep people awake at night or make them cry. We're just curious how the universe began. We need to know how it ends. That's nice I believe that strength comes from you and you believe it comes from god, but either way you have it.
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Post by hey light on Apr 3, 2010 19:17:20 GMT -5
Because it seems that the biggest obsticle of Dan's is creationism stating that the world is 6000yro I want to bring up my argument. My argument for creationism has always been, who said God's week is the same as ours? Who said one of God's days is 24 earth hours? Because it's obviously a few billion years. After that the time line irons out. "Let there be light" -last time I checked explosions are pretty bright(the big bang). Science backs up the story of creation when evolution explains that there was the earth, then a period of slow progressing evolution, then there were plants, another break, then fish, then birds, another break, then mammals, a break, and then modern humans. Explosions are pretty bright, but the Big Bang wasn't an explosion. It was a rapid expansion of the universe.
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RabbitWho
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Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
Posts: 808
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 3, 2010 19:33:49 GMT -5
Because it seems that the biggest obsticle of Dan's is creationism stating that the world is 6000yro I want to bring up my argument. My argument for creationism has always been, who said God's week is the same as ours? Who said one of God's days is 24 earth hours? Because it's obviously a few billion years. After that the time line irons out. "Let there be light" -last time I checked explosions are pretty bright(the big bang). Science backs up the story of creation when evolution explains that there was the earth, then a period of slow progressing evolution, then there were plants, another break, then fish, then birds, another break, then mammals, a break, and then modern humans. Explosions are pretty bright, but the Big Bang wasn't an explosion. It was a rapid expansion of the universe. ex·plo·sion n. 1. a. A release of mechanical, chemical, or nuclear energy in a sudden and often violent manner with the generation of high temperature and usually with the release of gases.b. A violent bursting as a result of internal pressure.c. The loud, sharp sound made as a result of either of these actions. 2. A sudden, often vehement outburst: an explosion of rage.3. A sudden, great increase: a population explosion; the explosion of illegal drug use. 4. Linguistics See plosion.
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Post by hey light on Apr 3, 2010 19:36:02 GMT -5
Explosions are pretty bright, but the Big Bang wasn't an explosion. It was a rapid expansion of the universe. ex·plo·sion n. 1. a. A release of mechanical, chemical, or nuclear energy in a sudden and often violent manner with the generation of high temperature and usually with the release of gases.b. A violent bursting as a result of internal pressure.c. The loud, sharp sound made as a result of either of these actions. 2. A sudden, often vehement outburst: an explosion of rage.3. A sudden, great increase: a population explosion; the explosion of illegal drug use. 4. Linguistics See plosion. It wasn't an expolsion.
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Post by Lex on Apr 3, 2010 19:36:00 GMT -5
Explosions are pretty bright, but the Big Bang wasn't an explosion. It was a rapid expansion of the universe. ex·plo·sion n. 1. a. A release of mechanical, chemical, or nuclear energy in a sudden and often violent manner with the generation of high temperature and usually with the release of gases.b. A violent bursting as a result of internal pressure.c. The loud, sharp sound made as a result of either of these actions. 2. A sudden, often vehement outburst: an explosion of rage.3. A sudden, great increase: a population explosion; the explosion of illegal drug use. 4. Linguistics See plosion. I think Chaos mean that scientifically, the Big Bang isn't considered an explosion.
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