Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Mar 30, 2010 18:33:32 GMT -5
I wouldn't say 'most.' Personally I try not to let fundamentalists skew my opinion of Christians too much. Fundamentalism (the strict adherence to a set of moral rules or guidelines to the absolute exclusion of anything disagreeing with them) is just another form of fanaticism. Just as terrorists should not besmear the name of a tolerant, intelligent Muslim, nor should Christian Fundamentalists besmear the name of someone who is a more tolerant, intelligent Christian.
//Edit: The problem is that the nutjobs tend to yell the loudest. This is true in every group -- religion, politics, activism, and so forth. The extremist groups are always the noisiest, and give the quieter, saner majority a bad name. :\
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Gesh
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Mishap Molly Cordell
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Post by Gesh on Mar 30, 2010 18:49:26 GMT -5
Wow, excellent response Ricky, you brought up some great points.
God wrote it.
The texts were found (all from different periods) and collected into the Bible that we have.
Ah, but that's the thing. The Gospels didn't come from different time periods (except Luke). Matthew and John were disciples of Jesus, and Mark wrote down the stories told by Peter, a disciple of Jesus.
Who do you know that worships Gandhi?
The truth will always come out in the end. That is why the earth being flat was disproved, and I'm also pretty sure that people's belief in the Bible has outlasted the time people believed the earth was flat (though I could be wrong on this, if so, correct me).
I expected this point would come up. I saw a show on TV somewhat recently that explained the entire history of Earth, and just how unlikely it was that everything would have happened the way it did, so that life would be possible on Earth. All the while, it kept saying "We're here because we're lucky." No, sorry, we're here because of God.
Actually, Jesus says in the New Testament that those people didn't meet that fate because they deserved it.
John 3:16 Oh, and by the way, I don't have nuts.. I'm a girl.
No, God has a plan, and he will put things in your life to set you on the right path. But ultimately, the decision is completely up to you, as to whether you go with God, or turn away from him.
Historical records? Define historical records. Jesus didn't have biological children, so we can't trace it that way. What other historical records would there be, besides eyewitness accounts? And we have those. Some preachers even go back to the original Hebrew texts to reference for their sermons.
Men came up with it. Men use their minds to comprehend the universe. Therefore: limited to the comprehension of the human mind. And someone infinite, who was there from the beginning of time, couldn't possibly be comprehended by finite sciences. And as for your David and Goliath comment, God was with David. God is clearly more powerful than Goliath. That was the whole reason David prevailed.
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Mar 30, 2010 18:55:07 GMT -5
Again, an assumption based on a total misinterpretation of chance. That humans would evolve on Earth was highly unlikely. That some form of creature would evolve somewhere in the universe was highly likely. Every sort of combination of creature and habitable planet are highly unlikely, but one or more of them were very likely to happen overall. Therefore that we exist is no surprise at all, and does not require God to explain. My post on page one goes into more detail on this, so I won't rehash the whole thing here.
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Post by hey light on Mar 30, 2010 18:58:25 GMT -5
Again, an assumption based on a total misinterpretation of chance. That humans would evolve on Earth was highly unlikely. That some form of creature would evolve somewhere in the universe was highly likely. Every sort of combination of creature and habitable planet are highly unlikely, but one or more of them were very likely to happen overall. Therefore that we exist is no surprise at all, and does not require God to explain. My post on page one goes into more detail on this, so I won't rehash the whole thing here. I agree with Nakor.
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Post by Lex on Mar 30, 2010 18:58:50 GMT -5
Wow, excellent response Ricky, you brought up some great points. God wrote it. Hold on... wait... WHAT? God hasn't written anything. Everyone agrees on that. I dunno what planet you're from. Unless I'm missing something...?
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Post by shinigami345 on Mar 30, 2010 19:02:21 GMT -5
The drake equation points out the number of "earths" in the galaxy en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Equation the wiki the result is roughly 10 and we're 1 so that means theres 9 others similur to us within our galaxy according to this and thats just intelligent life that doesn't count bacteria and other eukaryotic and prokaryotic organisms that arn't intelligent. Also you have to keep in mind that if we recieve something like a radio signal from another place that is just for the sake of having a number 30 light years away that radio signal is from 30 years ago and they would have advanced since then unless they can send radio signals at above light speed which would put them way above our level of intelligence. But this does not mean that God didn't make them too and doesn't love them just as much as Earthlings. Because when God created everything it no where specificaly says that he only put life on the Earth he could have put it somewhere else(and yes I know I should captialize my "He" but I'm being lazy on that end).
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Post by hey light on Mar 30, 2010 19:04:51 GMT -5
Wow, excellent response Ricky, you brought up some great points. God wrote it. Hold on... wait... WHAT? God hasn't written anything. Everyone agrees on that. I dunno what planet you're from. Unless I'm missing something...? Again, I agree. I think the bible is just a story created by various early christians (for the old testament, anyway) based off some real events, spiced up with a little divine drama (i.e. Jesus being the son of god and all), to make Christianity seem more credible. The drake equation points out the number of "earths" in the galaxy en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Equation the wiki the result is roughly 10 and we're 1 so that means theres 9 others similur to us within our galaxy according to this and thats just intelligent life that doesn't count bacteria and other eukaryotic and prokaryotic organisms that arn't intelligent. Also you have to keep in mind that if we recieve something like a radio signal from another place that is just for the sake of having a number 30 light years away that radio signal is from 30 years ago and they would have advanced since then unless they can send radio signals at above light speed which would put them way above our level of intelligence. But this does not mean that God didn't make them too and doesn't love them just as much as Earthlings. Because when God created everything it no where specificaly says that he only put life on the Earth he could have put it somewhere else(and yes I know I should captialize my "He" but I'm being lazy on that end). The Drake Equation fails to include some things, like the probability of intelligent cilvilizations to obliterate themselves.
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Mar 30, 2010 19:08:51 GMT -5
shinigami345: Interesting read. I'll have to give it a thorough read-through later. And that's just one galaxy. Anyway, let me simplify the reason that complex life, suitable to where it exists, was likely to occur: A: Due to the vast number of planets in the universe, there are a great number on which abiogenesis (the formation of the most basic form of life from non-living matter) could occur. Thus, it is highly likely that abiogenesis would occur on one or more of these. B: After abiogenesis, evolution (including natural selection) kicks in. Mutations that make life less suitable to the planet on which it occurs will die off, while mutations that make life more suitable to that planet will survive and spread. C: On any planets where both abiogenesis occurred and the planet is suitable to larger life forms capable of holding large brains, eventually evolution would achieve a complex, intelligent creature such as humans. This is why it's considered very likely that there are other life forms on other planets somewhere in the universe, and why a god is not required to explain the presence of human life. I'm not saying you can't believe in there being a god, only that the premise of god being needed to explain our existence is flawed.
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Gesh
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Mishap Molly Cordell
Posts: 453
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Post by Gesh on Mar 30, 2010 19:09:25 GMT -5
Again, an assumption based on a total misinterpretation of chance. That humans would evolve on Earth was highly unlikely. That some form of creature would evolve somewhere in the universe was highly likely. Every sort of combination of creature and habitable planet are highly unlikely, but one or more of them were very likely to happen overall. Therefore that we exist is no surprise at all, and does not require God to explain. My post on page one goes into more detail on this, so I won't rehash the whole thing here. I /really/ don't feel like explaining everything the TV show said, but I can tell you it was made by people way more knowledgeable about science than you, and they probably didn't believe in God because they kept saying, "We're here because we're lucky." They explained the entire history of the earth, and how unlikely it was that all of that would have happened just the way it did to allow for life on the planet.
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Gesh
Planet
Mishap Molly Cordell
Posts: 453
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Post by Gesh on Mar 30, 2010 19:13:00 GMT -5
Hold on... wait... WHAT? God hasn't written anything. Everyone agrees on that. I dunno what planet you're from. Unless I'm missing something...? Again, I agree. I think the bible is just a story created by various early christians (for the old testament, anyway) based off some real events, spiced up with a little divine drama (i.e. Jesus being the son of god and all), to make Christianity seem more credible. Back to one of my original points... how likely is it that all those people would have written down predictions of the coming of Christ /exactly/ as it happened thousands of years later? Oh, that's right, God told them / showed them what to write. It's difficult to argue against science if you don't understand it completely, and I know quite a few scientists who complain about that. So, if you want to argue against Christian beliefs, then try reading the Bible, because a lot of the stuff you're saying is contradicted right in there.
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Post by Lex on Mar 30, 2010 19:19:32 GMT -5
Again, I agree. I think the bible is just a story created by various early christians (for the old testament, anyway) based off some real events, spiced up with a little divine drama (i.e. Jesus being the son of god and all), to make Christianity seem more credible. Back to one of my original points... how likely is it that all those people would have written down predictions of the coming of Christ /exactly/ as it happened thousands of years later? Oh, that's right, God told them / showed them what to write. It's difficult to argue against science if you don't understand it completely, and I know quite a few scientists who complain about that. So, if you want to argue against Christian beliefs, then try reading the Bible, because a lot of the stuff you're saying is contradicted right in there. I went to church for a few months. I tried believing. It didn't work. It's still a load of inspirational fables to me.
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Post by Ricky on Mar 30, 2010 19:40:25 GMT -5
As Alex just said, God didn't write anything and if something in the bible can be figurative so can GOD! I was talking about the prophesies not the books that make up the bible. Those can not be found They did come from different time periods because of records when they were first used. But lets assume you are right and they were written by a group of people. It would still only have to be very few people. I could get together with some friends and write something, does that make it factual, no... HUNDREDS: www.thaindian.com/newsportal/uncategorized/hundreds-worship-gandhi-in-orissa-villages-on-his-birth-anniversary_100102804.htmlMy point exactly. The truth will always come out in the end. Some things just take longer to disprove, but only because there is so little (or nothing) that proves them... P.S: some people still believe the earth is flat... just like some people still believe in creationism... If it hadn't been us it would of been somewhere else because the universe is so big. Which would be just as unlikely but would have happened... Which just shows how unspecial we really are... Ok... then why did they meet that fate??? Many killers, and people in jail believe in Jesus and don't follow his teachings. and according to this they wont perish and have eternal life... interesting... If he had a plan then does he remake it every time someone does something that didn't go according to what he set for you to get to "the right path"? if not then it means that there is no free will... There aren't any documents such as the dead sea scrolls that account for anything related to Jesus, and if he was such a huge figure there would of been said documents. Also eyewitness accounts do not exist only those in the bible, but the bible doesn't have reliable documentation... Its been rewritten too many times and no document from the time of jesus has been found... Men came up with it. Men use their minds to comprehend the universe. Therefore: limited to the comprehension of the human mind. And someone infinite, who was there from the beginning of time, couldn't possibly be comprehended by finite sciences. And as for your David and Goliath comment, God was with David. God is clearly more powerful than Goliath. That was the whole reason David prevailed.[/quote] If Human comprehension is limited how can YOU understand god... Also, you don't need to understand something to observe it...
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Post by Joey on Mar 30, 2010 19:59:51 GMT -5
Here's an anology for God.
The man(god) has created a new car. And the man created the mountain. The man created people to go in the cars. One day two cars were driving different ways and weren't paying attention to the signs the man had put up to warn them. The man was watching from the top of the mountain and saw the two cars driving toward eachother on a crash course, but could not stop them. The man had allowed the people to drive without his intervention, so he could not help them.
The end and blah blah blah
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Gesh
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Mishap Molly Cordell
Posts: 453
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Post by Gesh on Mar 30, 2010 20:09:51 GMT -5
Do I really have to repeat myself for the third time? God obviously didn't write the scriptures literally. He told/showed people what to write. And before you start arguing that they could have come up with it themselves, please go back and read my previous posts so I don't have to repeat myself again.
What do you mean? The prophesies are written /in/ the books... Maybe I'm just misinterpreting what you're saying, and if so, I do apologize.
Records show that (as I said before) Matthew and John were disciples of Jesus who wrote two of those books, therefore they came from the same time period, and Mark wrote down the stories of Peter, who was also a disciple of Jesus, therefore from the same time period. Also, many people believed the things in the Bible, and many people wrote it down as well. Just because everyone's account isn't in the Bible...
Ah, yes. Now, how many worship God? Millions.
Well only time will tell then, won't it? We can't decide as of right now.
How do we know? We have no way of knowing whether there is life out there or not, so it's impossible for any one side of this debate to use that as a point. Besides, if there was/is other life, who's to say God didn't make himself known to them as well?
No one can understand completely why God does what he does. We just have to trust that God has a plan for us, and if we are willing to follow his plan, in the end we will receive eternal life. That I know of, Jesus never said straight out why that fate came their way. But he did say that it was not because they deserved it.
That is correct. God sees men in ways fellow men cannot. He looks at the heart and what the person was searching for. A person's actions are what men judge by, not God. God made the ultimate sacrifice to forgive all our sins, so we don't have to worry about that. He has an open invitation to his love and to eternal life, we just have to accept it. All the same, we cannot know exactly how he will judge. It is not our place to judge.
Not quite. But God will always try to help you see the light, help you see that he is the way, the truth, and the life. He will do this by placing things in your life to help you get there. But he will not make the choice for you. The choice is yours, and yours alone. He may know what you will choose, but he will not make the choice for you. (that's why I don't really believe in predestination, a Calvinist idea)
Well I am not knowledgeable enough of all these documents to tell you what you are wrong or right about, and so I also have no way of knowing whether you are in fact correct or not. All I know is that people even in the Middle Ages translated original Hebrew texts into the vernacular, and that that is still going on today.
When did I claim to understand God? As I've said in this post even, no one can fully understand everything about him and why he does what he does. He is the only one who sees the whole picture.
And yes, I know that. But science can never explain God because he is infinite and all-powerful. Therefore science can never prove or disprove his existence. And so, you cannot possibly rely on science alone to determine whether God exists or not.
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Gesh
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Mishap Molly Cordell
Posts: 453
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Post by Gesh on Mar 30, 2010 20:12:01 GMT -5
Here's an anology for God. The man(god) has created a new car. And the man created the mountain. The man created people to go in the cars. One day two cars were driving different ways and weren't paying attention to the signs the man had put up to warn them. The man was watching from the top of the mountain and saw the two cars driving toward eachother on a crash course, but could not stop them. The man had allowed the people to drive without his intervention, so he could not help them. The end and blah blah blah How'd you get that? I'm sorry, but this has no relevance whatsoever. God does intervene in people's lives. He simply leaves the choice up to them in the end.
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Post by Lex on Mar 30, 2010 20:20:31 GMT -5
Here's an anology for God. The man(god) has created a new car. And the man created the mountain. The man created people to go in the cars. One day two cars were driving different ways and weren't paying attention to the signs the man had put up to warn them. The man was watching from the top of the mountain and saw the two cars driving toward eachother on a crash course, but could not stop them. The man had allowed the people to drive without his intervention, so he could not help them. The end and blah blah blah How'd you get that? I'm sorry, but this has no relevance whatsoever. God does intervene in people's lives. He simply leaves the choice up to them in the end. Sorry, no. Tell that to the starving children in Africa, or the person standing on a bridge about to commit suicide. It's a matter of opinion.
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Gesh
Planet
Mishap Molly Cordell
Posts: 453
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Post by Gesh on Mar 30, 2010 20:25:54 GMT -5
How'd you get that? I'm sorry, but this has no relevance whatsoever. God does intervene in people's lives. He simply leaves the choice up to them in the end. Sorry, no. Tell that to the starving children in Africa, or the person standing on a bridge about to commit suicide. It's a matter of opinion. And now to repeat myself yet again: As for the starving children in Africa, that is not their fate because they deserved it. If you're confused, read the above posts. And as for the person standing on a bridge about to commit suicide, I honestly don't see how that pertains to what you quoted at all. God obviously would have done something in that person's life. He's not forcing them to jump.
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Post by Ricky on Mar 30, 2010 21:16:58 GMT -5
Do I really have to repeat myself for the third time? sorry i'll follow the latest one: how likely is it that all those people would have written down predictions of the coming of Christ /exactly/ as it happened thousands of years later? Oh, that's right, God told them / showed them what to write. It's difficult to argue against science if you don't understand it completely, and I know quite a few scientists who complain about that. So, if you want to argue against Christian beliefs, then try reading the Bible, because a lot of the stuff you're saying is contradicted right in there. How easy is it to write a prediction when it has already happen... mmm... very easy... Its like if I write today that on September 11 2001 there will be terrorist attacks on the US. Then date my latter as if it was from a long time ago... Sorry, but it was just too easy to falsificate something like it, which means its most likely fake... (I'm saying after Jesus was born) Also I was born from a catholic family and spent months on a seminary preparing to become a priest before I became an atheist... so yea I know what i'm talking about. You are missing the point! you said that no one would worship someone like Jesus if he had not done everything he did with miracles. I just proved you wrong... This is one of my favorites by far... Listen to what you are saying: 1. God creates humans knowing exactly what they will do. 2. God sets a plan. 3. God knew that because of the way the person was made he/she wont follow the plan. (because he knows everything) 4. God punishes the person with eternal suffering because they didn't follow the plan.... That does sound logical to you? ?? why not?
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Post by flyingmoosestudios on Mar 30, 2010 21:18:45 GMT -5
I've had a very difficult time keeping my mouth shut the past few days, when Dan posted videos concerning religion, and he was arguing (so to speak) against creationism and all that... so I'm going to try and get all my thoughts down here and now. First thing - creationism vs. evolution. I understand that it is very, very probable that evolution occurred. In fact, I myself believe that it did happen. It only makes sense. But yet, I believe completely in God and Jesus and everything the Bible says. How is this, when it clearly states in Genesis that God made Adam out of dust, and that he was the first man? Well, here's what I think. There are many, many examples of figurative statements in the Bible (parables, metaphors, etc.), so who's to say that the "making Adam out of dust" thing isn't figurative? When living things die, they eventually decompose and become part of the dirt. So, is it not possible that in saying God made Adam out of dust, it was really speaking of an evolutionary process? I know that was brief and not explained very well, but I have a lot of things I want to cover in this post. So. Anyway. As for Adam being the first man... We all know the classic question, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Well, one day I found a video online that jokingly explained why the egg came first - chickens evolved from some ancient creature, and eventually it got to the point where an animal 99.999999% chicken laid an egg, and from that egg hatched a 100% chicken. But this scenario gave me the idea, that maybe Adam was the first "real" man? 100%, has the genetics (or whatever they're called, I'm not good with biology) that a true human does, rather than the cavemen living thousands of years ago who were still "evolving"... Now! The real questions, not so much concerning the creation of the universe, but rather, science vs. religion as a whole. Many people coming from a scientific perspective tell religious people that religion does not have much of a place in explaining the universe, if any at all, and that the knowledge we have because of science comes from proven theories, laws, etc... so therefore, because it is proven, logical, reasonable, and has TONS of evidence to support it, science is the true "definer" of the universe. It always has the last word, and so religious people must come up with "excuses" as to why their beliefs still hold true as new scientific discoveries are made. BUT, although belief in Jesus and God may be a leap of faith, it is not totally blind. It may not have hard facts to support it and back it up, but when you take a step back and put all scientific reasoning aside, and just ask yourself, "Why?", it may become clear. How likely is it that texts from thousands of years ago, written by numerous different people from different time periods, predict the coming of Christ exactly as it happened thousands of years later? And how likely is it that the accounts of that coming of Christ all pretty much say the same things, despite them also being written by numerous different people? And how likely is it that a solitary man would have sparked the widest, most popular religion in all of human history without having performed the miracles described in scripture, but rather with words alone? And how likely is it that if the Bible were a hoax, it has stood the test of time and not been disproved? And how likely is it that this world we live on is at just the right temperature and has just the right resources we need to survive, when all other planets we've found have no signs of life? How likely is it that this planet would have gone through the evolutionary process it did, that was precise and exact enough to make life possible here on Earth? How likely is it that we are at the very top of the food chain if God did not intend for us to have authority over animals and on this planet (though don't get me wrong here, I still love nature and think we should take very good care of it, especially since we need to be good stewards)? How likely is it that whenever I ask for a sign as to whether God exists or is with me, that sign occurs, every time, when these signs I ask for would definitely not happen on a regular basis? How do you explain all the "happy accidents" in the world? How do you explain luck? How do you explain the miracles that still happen today? You scientists and mathematicians are always using probability and talking about whether something could possibly be, depending on how probable it is. So tell me, how likely are all those things that I mentioned above, if there is no God, or Jesus never came to Earth, or the Bible is untrue? Romans 1:20 So yeah... debate away! You have made a very good point, and for the most part I agree. However, in calling ourselves Christians, we are saying we live by and agree with everything the bible says.(in context, of course). The only problem I see with this argument is this one sentence: "God created man in his own image." Genesis 1:27 But, as everyone can agree on, no one knows for sure how we got here, or what happens when we leave this beautiful planet.
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Post by shinigami345 on Mar 30, 2010 21:26:27 GMT -5
Let me point out that science's cheif theory for the beginning of the universe is no better and in fact is worse than any form of creationism. If anyone knows the big bang theory please please please explain to me the following: Where did the origional matter come from to start the big bang process? What is said matter made of? What caused the expansion from said matter to occur? if you can't answer those questions then your theory is just as bad as how you picture creationism
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