Nakor
Star
Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
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Post by Nakor on Apr 3, 2010 19:44:56 GMT -5
But it does require some extent to abandoning... attempting to believe that the position of various gigantic burning balls of gases and rocks relative to the position of the one we're on would hold any information about one's lot in life is about as unscientific as it gets. And if you mix it with psychology to get an accurate result, well... you could have got that accurate result (or better) with psychology alone.
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Post by bunnyfulwanderer on Apr 3, 2010 19:49:41 GMT -5
Any what's wrong with being a little unscientific? Nobody is asking them to teach it in schools. Divining for me is a hobby, it's a personal thing, a spiritual thing, a thing to make me a better person. it's fun, but it's also insightful. I guess what I mean is.
um...who cares? o.o; with all due respect.
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Philosoraptor
Moon
dangling prepositions is something up with which I shall not put
Posts: 145
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Post by Philosoraptor on Apr 3, 2010 21:04:06 GMT -5
No, the operative part of "pseudoscience" is the "pseudo-" part. False, fraudulent, claiming to be a science when it is certainly not. There is absolutely nothing scientific about star signs or sun signs or card-reading or palm-reading or any of that.
You can't hold the belief that the positions of the stars or the planets affect human emotions and still sit within the bounds of reason or science. They conflict.
Scientific reasoning is the most effective method of getting to the truth that humans have. It works. It doesn't need supernatural help to explain our universe, and best of all, it deals entirely with things that are real. Science is applied logic.
Nobody's trying to tell you what to do as a hobby, but the fact that Astrology is often thought of as fact, as something that really exists, is misleading to a lot of people.
This is just my personal opinion now, so make of it what you will, but I believe that understanding our universe the best we can with the tools we have is (or ought to be) one of the fundamental goals of humanity. I believe it can be an extremely gratifying personal experience, as well. The more I understand this universe, personally, the more I'm absolutely enthralled with just the idea that I'm here with the ability to understand it. Matter doesn't usually happen to arrange itself into forms that have the ability to consider anything at all, let alone the ability to contemplate its own origins and understand its universe. We are incredibly fortunate to be able to understand our universe, so I feel like the least I can do is try.
Which is why I'm really rather confused at people who settle with fiction and believe it as fact, and then are offended when someone offers them a more meaningful understanding.
With all due respect.
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Post by bunnyfulwanderer on Apr 3, 2010 21:12:03 GMT -5
Well that's the thing. I don't belittle science. don't act like it's an "either-or" scenario. it's not. I think science is very important. But I think divination has value as well. they aren't for the same things. I don't use Divination for making choices or even necessarily getting insights into my personality (although when it's accurate it really is eerie. lol ) I do it becuase it allows me to really sit and think about my life in a fun way. it's therapeutic. I never said it was scientific in the sense you are thinking. I'm saying astrology is a lot more exact then you know. actually learn how to do your own star chart, or at least learn about the considerations that go into it. even if you think it's false, if you learned about it you'd find there's a lot more to it then the fortune-cookie esch "readings" you read online between checking your facebook messages..
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Philosoraptor
Moon
dangling prepositions is something up with which I shall not put
Posts: 145
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Post by Philosoraptor on Apr 3, 2010 21:38:53 GMT -5
I believe you about it being exact. I'm sure a lot of precise work goes into it, just like a lot of precise work goes into a lot of hobbies and activities. There's lots of exactness and skill and precision that goes into Chess, or model airplane building, or cricket. I also believe you about it being a fun and gratifying thing for you to do. It's clear, though, that Astrology is something more than an activity or a hobby, at least to some people. Some people (I don't know whether this includes you, signs are pointing to no) believe that it is a real, factual way to explain some things in ways that are certainly not so. Something more than a fun, therapeutic activity.
I know you know a lot more about it than I do, so if there's some sort of glaring error in the way I'm approaching understanding it, do feel free to explain. Still, I think my points up to now have been valid.
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Post by bunnyfulwanderer on Apr 3, 2010 21:50:29 GMT -5
well thanks, I guess there are people like that. but that goes for religion and even science (for the latter. believe me there are real life Vulcans now. only they have more emotion, they're pretty quick to scream at you for being "illogical") but that's people being people.
If astrological fortune telling is like tarot then the perspective on the future is "likely future based on current trends" it isn't claiming knowledge of anything. but I think your objection is that practitioner theoretically believes a deck of cards is commenting on their future.
But honestly i think more people who use it secularly do it for fun and insight. and others see it as spiritual, which isn't necessarily safeguarded from logically disputes. but let people practice their spirituality as they will. it hurts no one.
I guess my feelings are divination isn't useless. It has insights. But it should be used with logic not against it. and by logic I don't mean contemporary skepticism (opposed to real philosophical skepticism) ie "the positions of the planets doesn't tell the future" but more in the sense of knowing how to live a good life, and reasonable mature attitudes. Divination is addictive and dangerous in the same way prayer is. If someone uses it in the stead of clear thought. yeah it's bad. but that person was probably damaged before they discovered it.
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Post by quinn on Apr 11, 2010 4:12:09 GMT -5
Okay I think I'd like to be a part of this current discussion. Firstly I would like to ask how astrology gives you insight, I want to know how the position of stars can tell us anything about anyone's life on earth. ( remember that many constolations aren't actually how we see them, the stars in orions belt aren't actually in a row, it just looks that way because we see the sky as a 2D sheet). Some people (I don't know whether this includes you, signs are pointing to no) believe that it is a real, factual way to explain some things in ways that are certainly not so. I guess there are people like that. but that goes for religion and even science (for the latter. believe me there are real life Vulcans now. only they have more emotion, they're pretty quick to scream at you for being "illogical") but that's people being people. You shouldn't have included science in that reply, or people disliking illogical ways of acting. Science IS a real, factual way of explaining something. And every good decision ever deliberately made was made using logic, and all the best inventions made in the last 200 years were invented using science. Any what's wrong with being a little unscientific? Nobody is asking them to teach it in schools. Divining for me is a hobby, it's a personal thing, a spiritual thing, a thing to make me a better person. it's fun, but it's also insightful. I guess what I mean is.
um...who cares? o.o; with all due respect. I care, although I'm sure you're an awesome person but allowing people to think and act illogically and unscientifically without debate leads to all sorts of problems starting when these people get into power. You believe astrology has a bit of insight, what if barack obama believed it had a LOT of insight. Or what would happen if some kind of person believed a 6000 year old spirit wanted him to become a terrorist leader and blow up two gigantic buildings in new york... oh wait that would never happen, I forgot spirituality hurt no-one. Eddited to correct gramatical errors only. -Quinn
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RabbitWho
Star
Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
Posts: 808
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 11, 2010 4:32:04 GMT -5
Don't forget, if your star sign message doesn't make sense for you it means it was meant for someone else that day. And if you don't like what you read don't forget to check your rising sign as well, a lot of people find their rising sign is more accurate. Calculate your rising sign here: www.horoscopeswithin.com/calculate.phpHow could anyone say that's not scientific, look at all the lines and different colors!
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Post by stephen5000 on Apr 11, 2010 4:38:56 GMT -5
Don't forget, if your star sign message doesn't make sense for you it means it was meant for someone else that day. And if you don't like what you read don't forget to check your rising sign as well, a lot of people find their rising sign is more accurate. Calculate your rising sign here: www.horoscopeswithin.com/calculate.phpWent to that website. That was a load of crap. It didn't describe in even the slightest.
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Post by quinn on Apr 11, 2010 4:56:43 GMT -5
Can no-one who believes in this just explain what forces cause star position to effect lives on earth.
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Post by bunnyfulwanderer on Apr 11, 2010 17:11:27 GMT -5
I have to note I have spoken somewhat out of turn as Astrology is not the form of divination of which I am most familiar. But to be fair I have already rather explicitly stated that. I included science, not becuase I have any disrespect for science, but becuase I have disrespect for those who disrespect it. Either by denying it's validity or by using it to impose a "naturalistic" philosophy that ultimately says, if science can't trace it, it's not important. You can't quantify emotion, nor can you measure charater objectivity, and if every fiber of your being is about natural sciences then your ultimately an unbalanced individual and missing the point entirely, science and philosophy are about finding truth and gaining knowledge, . I think people need to look at everything that's out there. also there is a difference between spirituality and divination, while they can coincide . Astrologers are not religious fundamentalists. nobody has bombed anyone in the name of rune stones. I read tarot cards as an atheist (I did it becuase I was fascinated by the process and it was an interesting hobby, as well as a lifelong fascination with the occult suppressed by a christian upbringing). and religion and spirituality are not the same thing, "religion is for those who fear hell, spirituality is for those who have already been there" just becuase people have some "unscientific" or unproven beliefs doesn't make them violent terrorists, those who are... it makes them victims of the worst traits of monotheism anyway. what do the stars and planets have to do with human personality/behavior? it's actually hinted at (or at least justified) by advances in science. yes there is mysticism in astrology, but there's also mysticism in alchemy. which evolved into the secular study of chemistry. www.astrologycom.com/astrol3.html
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Nakor
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Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
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Post by Nakor on Apr 11, 2010 17:43:26 GMT -5
I think there can be an intuitive value to it, but it's very hard to explain... I've never tried to with astrology. It involves creativity and thinking outside the box. I've been meaning to make a post on borrowing generally superstitious ideas for real-world merits they can have, but need to sort bits out in my head yet.
Note that astrology itself I find to be utter bullocks when taken as anything more serious than a fortune cookie.
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Post by bunnyfulwanderer on Apr 11, 2010 17:48:14 GMT -5
I think there can be an intuitive value to it, but it's very hard to explain... I've never tried to with astrology. It involves creativity and thinking outside the box. I've been meaning to make a post on 'weird atheism' as it were, but need to sort bits out in my head yet. Note that astrology itself I find to be utter bullocks when taken as anything more serious than a fortune cookie. and that's fine. but I'm glad people do at least you admit there is some value to it (although you don't get it personally) I'm really playing the devils advocate a lot here. this debate doesn't value anyone if it's just everyone here bashing it.
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Nakor
Star
Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
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Post by Nakor on Apr 11, 2010 17:52:40 GMT -5
Now, I wouldn't say I don't get it. I fully get it. (I even studied it for a little while.) I concluded that its conclusions were bullocks while fully 'getting it.' Astrology wouldn't be my first choice of something for taking unintended merits from the superstitious. Gah, I need to hammer out my thoughts into something legible before I'll make much more sense than that.
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Post by bunnyfulwanderer on Apr 11, 2010 18:47:56 GMT -5
lol fair enough.
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Post by The Monster on Apr 11, 2010 21:35:56 GMT -5
We studied this in psychology on how everyone possesses a certain amount of similar traits and how these traits are reflected through this astrology stuff. Basically it attempts to manipulate people to think this "destinies" are responsible for their decisions (mainly poor one's); due to the fact people like to explain their fault through external causes. For example I didn't get a date with that girl because I didn't listen to my horoscope; when in fact you didn't get a date with that girl because you have poor social skills and don't know how to uphold a conversion (sorry for the pessimism).
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Post by bunnyfulwanderer on Apr 11, 2010 21:53:48 GMT -5
We studied this in psychology on how everyone possesses a certain amount of similar traits and how these traits are reflected through this astrology stuff. Basically it attempts to manipulate people to think this "destinies" are responsible for their decisions (mainly poor one's); due to the fact people like to explain their fault through external causes. For example I didn't get a date with that girl because I didn't listen to my horoscope; when in fact you didn't get a date with that girl because you have poor social skills and don't know how to uphold a conversion (sorry for the pessimism). Well certainly the most obvious abuses of horoscope is that a newspaper or online one (obviously fake) go on the idea that people are pretty similar at heart and that's how they get away with deciding there's only 12 experiences you can have on any given day. however. I do believe there is a sort of collective unconscious, Astrology when studied actually has more to do with specifics then vague ideas. and it's up to the astrologer to derive context. but i will never deny that human beings in order to protect ones self esteem occasionally to shift blame. But it's pretty ignorant to assume that's all divination is.
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Post by brumagem on Apr 11, 2010 21:59:15 GMT -5
Just another one of those things that's really easy to agree with in hind sight.
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Nakor
Star
Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
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Post by Nakor on Apr 11, 2010 22:09:20 GMT -5
Indeed it's ignorant to assume that's what divination is. It's scientific to look at all the evidence available to you and conclude that is what divination is. I've never seen any evidence to show that astrology has accurate predictions of any sort.
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Post by quinn on Apr 11, 2010 23:14:23 GMT -5
I have disrespect for those who disrespect it. Either by denying it's validity or by using it to impose a "naturalistic" philosophy that ultimately says, if science can't trace it, it's not important. You can't quantify emotion, nor can you measure charater objectivity, and if every fiber of your being is about natural sciences then your ultimately an unbalanced individual and missing the point entirely, science and philosophy are about finding truth and gaining knowledge, . I think people need to look at everything that's out there. Okay I think if science can't trace it it's not important. Obviously there are things that happen in the universe that aren't explained yet, but astrology hasn't even been observed to happen yet so we shouldn't be trying to explain it. What was written in that link you posted merely leads to a hypothesis or two which hasn't even started to be built into a theory. Secondly we can quantify emotion using scientific methods, in fact we have already done using MRI scanners, we can vaguely measure peoples' emotional responses to separate stimuli by imaging active regions in the brain, it isn't incredibly accurate but it is a new method. Using a vastly more complex version of this I'm sure we could measure character objectivity as well. Every fibre of my being is about science, how does this make me unbalanced? (This is not rhetorical or an argument, if you think that I would like to understand why) Lastly you say science and philosophy are about finding truth and gaining knowledge. Why would I consider anything that isn't about finding truth and gaining knowledge? - Quinn
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