ElfLady
Planet
I'm a crazy!
Posts: 409
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Post by ElfLady on Mar 4, 2010 2:01:26 GMT -5
Everything is relative! What we perceive as scientific fact, is only proven based on a premise which we pre-establish as true. If these premises were not all true, then fact as we know it could be completely altered.
Just sayin'.
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Post by nickgreyden on Mar 4, 2010 2:11:46 GMT -5
Are you religious?Yes. Which religion are you?My own. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe that the whole purpose was to have us be nice to each other. Do you think religion is a necessary part of society?Yes. It gives hope to those without hope. It gives help to those without help. It satisfiys a deep inner need for many people that science can't fill. Why do we have religion? What purpose does it serve in your life?We have religion because people needed it a great many years ago. It has survived to this day. In my own life, it serves as a moral compass. The saying "WWJD" or "What would Jesus Do" rings true in many ways for myself. He did many many things in his life, but if you look at it as a whole, the whole thing was about just being nice. Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version) 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
1 John 4:8 (New International Version)
8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
So God is love, and he wants us to love our neighbor. Sounds easy.
Paul gave a great insight into this as well
1 Corinthians 13:13 (New International Version)
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
The greatest is not hope. The greatest is not faith that we have in God himself or anyone or anything. Instead, the greatest thing we have been given by God is love. The ability to have compassion and charity for our fellow man. In the end, God or no God, church or no church, soul or no soul... isn't this just a good idea?
Douglas Addams kinda hit the nail on the head. An unbeliever himself, he wrote in his famous Hitchhiker's Guide the Galaxy "...And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change..."
Even Mohandas Gandhi was quoted as saying "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Why? Because so many Christians are so worried about rituals and details and saving the unbelieving world, they forget the two greatest commandments. Love God. Love your neighbor.
Brennan Manning said, "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
I encourage everyone reading to look at our values. Look at what we have set down in writing. Also look to the upper tribe levels. If you take God out of the equation, can it not be boiled down to the simplest of phrases; Love each other.
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Post by dearamber on Mar 4, 2010 4:12:51 GMT -5
All religions that I have looked into so far have certain aspects of them that I like, which are mostly based on morals rather than sanctified beliefs. For example, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." That is a terrific value we should all have, regardless of our beliefs, simply due to the moral aspect of it. Three trainings in Buddhism, is short, are morality, mental development, and wisdom. Again, regardless of your beliefs, those are practices we all most likely attempt in everyday life.
With countless moral values in every religion, I try to stay open-minded to them all, in attempt to learn as much as i can. Another reason i try to stay open-minded, is because of the uncertainty of it all. Believing in something so intangible as religion is a scary task. What if it turns out to be untrue? What if you choose the wrong one? I mean, who is really to say which religion is right above all others?
How did religion even come to be in the first place? Is there really a chance that Greek Gods, Pagan Goddesses, or a man named Jesus Christ might have been roaming the earth at one point?
Or maybe religion was simply a way to explain all of the crazy things people couldn't understand. For example, think back to the very first human beings. Imagine all of the cavemen just hanging out with one another, then all of the sudden water begins falling out of the sky. Of course, we know all known that it was rain. But before scientist's back in the day discovered that rain was a result of water evaporation in the atmosphere, the first human's couldn't have had any idea what rain was or how it came to be. Therefore, they could have very well made up some crazy story of a higher being, purposely dumping all of that wet stuff on them.
The things we don't understand are infinite: medical anomalies, global warming, black holes, or how the heck the Stonehenge was built. The same theory of the first humans could still apply. Are these things miraculous works of a higher power and part of a divine plan or are these works of nature that we just can't decode yet?
Perhaps it wasn't that way at all. Perhaps it all began as a form of social control, created by the higher people on the totem pole as a way to project a fantasy form of horrific retribution or heavenly redemption to men and women and children in order to keep them in line. Nowadays, I doubt governmental social control through religion is quite as easy. People are more educated and have values that are more personalized than a person's may have been a few thousand years ago. The ideas of moral right and wrong are taught more, rather than the ideas of going to hell if you do bad things and going to heaven if you do good things. Because of that progression, i don't think religion is necessary to society, only a preference for the people who choose to follow it.
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Cortney
Star
[AWD:0c15]The Objectioner
The Bown
Posts: 885
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Post by Cortney on Mar 4, 2010 7:19:18 GMT -5
dearamber: I pretty much completely agree with your post. Religions have great morals and guidelines, for the most part. The only thing I'm not too fond of about them is the actual religion part. =P And I also agree with everybody who has said religion is here to fill in the blanks. However (this is not in response to you, dearamber), I don't think it is necessary to society at all. I can't remember exactly who, but someone posted about religion serving as a moral guideline in situations like criminal law and whatnot. This kind of implies that without religion, it's hard to have morals or you just don't have morals. I disagree. The concept of morals is not something controlled by religion, it's controlled by the person and how they were raised. My mother is an atheist and a very nice person. While I know some people would be horrid if not for the fear of Hell, I don't think that fear is necessary to control society.
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Nakor
Star
Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
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Post by Nakor on Mar 4, 2010 12:22:42 GMT -5
When I say faith I mean assuming something to be true without proof. Dictionary: proof (n): Any factual evidence that helps to establish the truth of somethingScience does not put faith in anything in the absence of proof. The proof may not be 100% beyond the remotest doubt, but proof is provided. While I'm in the dictionary: faith (n) 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing 2. belief that is not based on proof 3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion 4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc. 5. a system of religious belief 6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc. 7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.Seems to me that science uses that first definition of faith (confidence in a thing) while religion uses the second definition (belief not based on proof) and of course third and fifth definition (belief in a god). The remainder don't relate to the discussion at hand; the fourth type is philosophical in nature, philosophy being something that everyone differs on to some extent and really doesn't base itself in facts or figures, and the last two refer to honesty and keeping promises. Short version: Scientific faith is confidence in things based on proof. Religious faith is belief in things without any proof. Again, totally different kinds of faith. This is not a matter of the quantity of faith; their very natures are opposite to each other.
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Post by swan on Mar 4, 2010 14:45:51 GMT -5
Dictionary: proof (n): Any factual evidence that helps to establish the truth of somethingProof ≠ evidence, proof proves something and evidence just supports, and the evidence provided by scientific experiments is not factual it is empirical. Science never does or even tries to prove anything, based on this I'm questioning the importance of evidence (at least empirical evidence) in relation to truth, not consensus. Again faith is clearly not the word I should have used, but my point is both religion and science require a certain amount of assumptions to be made and based on this they are fundamentally similar and that is my point. I have acknowledged all along that one requires more assumptions (or bigger assumptions) than the other, and I think a lot (If not all) of what I said in my last post is still accurate. Seeing as how we have gone pretty off topic I think we should just agree to disagree, because it doesn't look like we're gonna reach an agreement .
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Nakor
Star
Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
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Post by Nakor on Mar 4, 2010 16:54:47 GMT -5
Very well, I suppose I have to agree. You argue the assumptions are bigger (likely versus unlikely), I argue that they're a different nature (founded versus unfounded) and we go in circles. But in closing I do want to note that the definition I gave for proof is out of a dictionary. The dictionary says proof is anything factual that helps establish the truth. The very definition of the word proof does not require it to be conclusive. Wording, in an argument, is very important.
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bleabot
Moon
Set phazors to dance, Mr. Warf.
Posts: 109
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Post by bleabot on Mar 4, 2010 17:07:24 GMT -5
Are you religious? Yep.
Which religion are you? I was born and raised Roman Catholic, but I've grown away from it and I've become...well, I suppose I'm agnostic in a sense. I lean toward Christianity in general though. I left the Roman Catholic Church and choose to remain unaffiliated because some things about religions, specifically the Roman Catholic one, don't make sense. For example, how is it that a church meant to better mankind and to be humble in all circumstances has the biggest and most expensive art collection in the world, most of which shouldn't be theirs in the first place?
Do you think religion is a necessary part of society? No. People are completely capable of leading kind, generous, moral, and happy lives without the influence of religion. It sure does help to have the Ten Commandments though! =P
Why do we have religion? Or, if you are religious, what purpose does it serve in your life? Religion, to me, stems from the fact that I simply cannot look out the window and believe that any of this happened by chance. There are far too many variables that are perfect, or very nearly, about Earth to just pass it off as luck. Nothing happens by chance, in my opinion. There's always a cause. In this world, you can't say "oh, that was just a coincidence"; there will always be a sequence of events leading up to that event. The same goes for this world. I can't imagine that all of this happened by chance. A higher power, aka God, has to have been there to push the first domino. Sure, you can say that there are an infinite number of realities and that we were bound to get it right at some point, but that doesn't make sense to me. That, however, is a discussion for another day...or for PM's/e-mails!
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mhart29
Moon
rubik domination
Posts: 182
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Post by mhart29 on Mar 4, 2010 19:39:33 GMT -5
I'm an atiest and it isn't a religion by defintion.
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Philosoraptor
Moon
dangling prepositions is something up with which I shall not put
Posts: 145
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Post by Philosoraptor on Mar 4, 2010 22:01:12 GMT -5
If I may stray off the guidelines for a moment, I want to talk a little bit about the questions bleabot raised in his last paragraph there. If you don't mind, bleabot, I'd like to include it in this discussion instead of PM's/e-mails, because someone else might want to participate.
Excuse me if I jump around a little, subject-wise.
Humans, as a species, are incredibly attracted to finding patterns and rules in things. In this case, specifically, confusion often springs from the mind comparing the universe, or the earth, or a living thing, to a finished product of some craftsman - like a painting, or a building, or a watch. This leads us to assume that there must be some all-powerful driving force. Someone who laid out the blueprints for where all the things of the universe must go, and how they must act. If the universe is here, then it must have been created, right? This seems to make sense at a glance, but it is a fundamentally incorrect way to look at reality.
This is not to say that everything happens arbitrarily, without a cause. That couldn't be further from the truth. Nothing exists without a because. Things happen and cause other things, which cause other things, with everything strictly abiding by the rules of nature. But it's a very grand leap from there to "So God must've done it."
For some reason, there's often a sort of negativity hovering around the idea that there is no big, grand reason for our universe's existence (or, more specifically, our existences). I don't quite understand. Personally, a causeless and godless universe is thousands of times more beautiful (and trillions of times more sensible) than a universe where every sunset, every star, every galaxy is just being held up like a puppet on a string by a magical fellow in the sky.
I can't exactly express what I mean as well as a few choice people, so I'll further clarify with a few quotes.
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grover
Moon
whatever.
Posts: 203
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Post by grover on Mar 5, 2010 0:55:56 GMT -5
I have recieved a witness that my religion is true.
I have been told that i only think that because I so desperately want it to be that way.
that sounds to me like an assumption based on no evidence, just sayin'
with that said, i'm finally gonna gdet off my lazy but and explain to nakor why his idea that a god being improbable is...........dare I say it, irrational.
be right back, i have a quote to retrieve.
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Nakor
Star
Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
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Post by Nakor on Mar 5, 2010 1:22:11 GMT -5
I suppose it would be wiser for me to wait for you to complete your argument before responding, but in short:
Regardless of whether I'm right or wrong about exactly why you believe what you do, your only evidence in favour of your theism is your claim to have received a witness, something that is basically hearsay to anyone other than yourself. If you truly have, good for you. I was a christian for over one score years and never experienced anything remotely supernatural. If you really received witness, then it would be rational for you to believe. However, even if that is true, as I cannot be sure you're both correct and telling the truth, and the natural world combined with my own experiences and logic tell me otherwise, it would be irrational for me to believe you.
In short, we're simply never going to agree on this point, so as swan suggested earlier, it is probably best for us to agree to disagree.
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Philosoraptor
Moon
dangling prepositions is something up with which I shall not put
Posts: 145
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Post by Philosoraptor on Mar 5, 2010 6:32:42 GMT -5
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Last night a giant silver ferret phased through my window and hovered around my bedroom, and he told me via telepathy that he totally existed and anyone who said he didn't was crazy.
Please explain why your claim is any more valid than mine.
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Post by mrpickles on Mar 6, 2010 5:00:13 GMT -5
1 Are you religious? Nope. I was raised (somewhat) as a Lutheran. I went to a Lutheran school from K-6th. And went to a Lutheran HS for a year and a half. I must say the science classes taught at that HS were laughable. The man teaching would go off on Political rants about how the 'evolutionist liberal looneys' swear at him at conferences because they're afraid he's right (or some nonsense very close to that). He would read the textbooks and when something was older than 6,000 years or whatever he would kinda of make a smart remark about it. He would often bring up the duckbill platypus and laugh that it was 'God' having fun with the evolutionists. It was pretty sickening that that most of that passed for an actual science class.
2 Which religion are you? I believe in Spinoza's god. The 'god' of order and balance. Einstein put it nicely " [Spinoza's god] who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.”
3 Do you think religion is a necessary part of society? I do feel it's ultimately unnecessary. Especially with the progression of our knowledge of what we see around us. But it has become embedded in our society.
4 Why do we have religion? Or, if you are religious, what purpose does it serve in your life? Religion was (in my opinion [and still is, depending on your faith]) an explanation to things around us. As our civilizations and technological knowledge grew, those unknowns, earlier 'explained' by religion, were and are becoming known. But I feel ultimately stubbornness (in the form of Religions[not all, but a lot]) got in the way of the quest for further knowledge.
I respect everyone's beliefs. And have no problem with them having them. I, like EVERYONE else don't have the answers to everything. But I do feel we should continue to look.
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Post by briana97 on Mar 6, 2010 6:32:50 GMT -5
im veryyy religious im a christian always have been. i go to church every sunday mornng and evening service .ibut i beleive that a world COULD survive with out it,i would really hate to live in it
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bleabot
Moon
Set phazors to dance, Mr. Warf.
Posts: 109
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Post by bleabot on Mar 6, 2010 9:05:41 GMT -5
If you don't mind, bleabot, I'd like to include it in this discussion instead of PM's/e-mails, because someone else might want to participate. That's totally fine. It's a good discussion to get into. I respect your opinion, and yes, it makes sense. Do I believe that this world was specifically created for me and every other human being? No, not at all. As I said, I'm somewhat agnostic; I believe there is "someone up there", but it is an impersonal relationship. If God made the earth specifically for humans, you'd think he would at least tell us to be less harmful to the environment. Still, that doesn't make me rethink my earlier statement. Earth is the perfect planet for life. It is the perfect distance from the sun, has the proper amount of water (which is unique in that, when it freezes, it expands...this means ice floats to the top instead of sinking, which keeps our marine life alive. I thought that was pretty interesting), has the right tilt so the earth doesn't become too hot or too cold, spins at the right speed, and has the right atmosphere, among other things. Is it possible that this happened by chance? Of course! There are 100 billion stars in this galaxy, each with the possibility of having earth-like planets orbiting them, and there are 100 billion galaxies out in the distance waiting to be observed. Alien life could exist somewhere out there. Still, I find it unlikely that such a perfect planet could have formed without a guiding hand. Another reason I believe in a higher power is that we don't understand what makes life...well, living. Unless I'm mistaken, scientists have succeeded in developing a substitute for skin cells, but they're dead. They can't get them to live. The old theory that a lightning striking a pond under the perfect conditions could have created the spark of life has yet to be proven. Again, it's entirely possible that life could have sprung up by chance, but until someone actually succeeds in creating a scenario that creates life and that scenario could happen naturally in the earth's past, I find it hard to fathom. I know we'll just disagree. I'm fine with that. It's still an interesting discussion though =D
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Philosoraptor
Moon
dangling prepositions is something up with which I shall not put
Posts: 145
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Post by Philosoraptor on Mar 6, 2010 9:28:24 GMT -5
Your position is completely respectable and understandable. The perfect-earth argument is a very understandable position, though I believe you're thinking of things the wrong way. The earth is not perfect for the life on it, the life here is perfect for the earth. Life, by means of natural selection, is able to mold itself over time to nearly any environment. This is why we find life in even the most extreme places on earth.
If the earth was a little bit closer to the sun, and happened to be warmer as a result, life would have just evolved with slightly different temperature extremes. If our atmosphere were composed of different gases, it would be those gases that we breathed. If ice was heavier than water, our marine life would still be thriving, though possibly a lot different. Life invited itself in and made itself at home on earth, the earth did not plan for its visit.
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The Doctor
Moon
I wear my sunglasses at night
Posts: 147
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Post by The Doctor on Mar 7, 2010 19:13:37 GMT -5
Are you religious? No! Which religion are you? None. Do you think religion is a necessary part of society? No. Religion has done nothing but harm to society the last 200,or so, years. Sure, 2000 years ago, it was a perfect way for despots to prevent chaos and anarchy, but today its hindering society from evolving. Today we have police, we have laws, we are recieve moral and ethics from school. What really makes me angry is when people say "Pray for them" when something horrible has happened, I mean, sure I wish them well. I dont care if praying actually would work, apperently it doesnt do THAT much. Take Chile, sure, if we pray for them in their time of need, some people will have survived. And Im willing to actually grant the believers that their praying might have helped those exact people, but you can bet your a** that the firefighter/rescueworkers did a lot more to help them than any prayer ever did. Religion has become a excuse for not having to take action, and a tool for controlling people. Actually I want to know what Religion has done for us the last hundred years, it sure helps people in their time of need, no doubt about it, but what has it done around the world? The things I can think of straight up is: Civil war in the British Isles, the beak up of Yugoslavia, gave ca 30 million africans AIDS. And what I wonder is, if its worth it? Cant people find their guidence or relief in other things? I used to go to a pastor and talk to him when I was in the army, not because he was a religious man, but because he has spent 40 years of his life helping people and making them feel better, often in the worst of situations. The first time I met him I said "none of that religious stuff thnx!" And he still did a great job everytime, so apperently it had nothing to do with religion, he is just a good listener... Just to make it clear, I have nothing against people thinking theres a god, or a protector or whatnot. People are as far as Im concerned allowed to pray for people aswell, but dont use it as an excuse. And yeah, bear with me on this one, its 0117 here, and I have a job interview tomorrow, me needs me some sleep! Stupid internet, giving me excuses to not sleep...
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Post by sunsetonthesea on Mar 7, 2010 20:50:25 GMT -5
Are you religious? Very.
Which religion are you? I was born and raised Lutheran, although I was baptized Methodist.
Do you think religion is a necessary part of society? Not particularly. Although I would love it if everyone was a Christian, I know that will never happen. We do have Freedom of Religion in this country. I believe that, as long as you believe in SOMETHING, then I shouldn't have a problem with you. Sorry if this offends anyone, but I really do not understand Atheists. How can someone believe NOTHING created the Earth? SOMETHING had to have done it, it couldn't have just been sitting there for a million years. While I believe that God did it, if someone else believes the Evolution Theory, then fine. But I don't understand how you can believe in NOTHING. Now, Agnostics I can understand, and I guess you could say I'm part Agnostic. I do believe that you cannot prove either way, but I have faith in my religion. It doesn't necessarily mean it's true, but they're my beliefs.
Anyway, back to the question. In society, I don't think religion plays a role. No one goes by The Bible, everyone goes by law. While I think religion is a sort of guiding force and can give someone a purpose in life, it does not play a role in society today as we know it.
Why do we have religion? Or, if you are religious, what purpose does it serve in your life? I think people have religions because they want to be able to turn to someone/something in their time of need. They want to be able to ask their spiritual leader for help and get an answer. They want to be able to have a purpose in life, not just think that they're just born to live and die. And I also think that they want to be happy. My personal experiences have proven that having a religion can turn your life around for the better.
When I was young and stupid, I was mega depressed and felt like there was nothing left I could do in this world. I figured that if I died, no one would care. Well, it was a few years after that that I started willingly going to church every weekend, and I found God as my comfort. It gave me the light at the end of the tunnel. It gave me something to believe in, and definitely turned me around and made me happier with my life. I think this is one of the main reasons people have religions. I think A) they want to be happy, B) they want someone to turn to, C) they want to have a purpose in life, and D) they want answers as to why the Earth is the way it is. I understand that, in Christianity, some questions are left unanswered and I was always told that "You can ask God when you get to heaven, He'll have the answer", but as for why a man as less ribs than a woman, I think Christianity explains it pretty well. I'm not saying it's the best, and it's certainly not the only, religion, but I just think that, because it turned my life around, I should believe it.
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Post by swan on Mar 7, 2010 20:54:19 GMT -5
The Doctor: I think a lot of the problems caused by religion are not so much the result of religious belief itself, but the individuals with unwavering belief in their religion or in other words, dogma. Strong belief in anything has both benefits and consequences, but it leaves the person open to manipulation by people of authority. I certainly agree that religion is a form of control (and control is necessary for order) and I also agree that we have better forms of control, at least in my opinion. However I think many people need something to believe in, and religion does a good job of that, and I think religion is necessary to some, but not essential to all. I suppose my point is that the problems of religion are because of people with unwavering belief in that religion, but that these problems are not specific to religion. I guess in other words, I'm trying to say question authority and think for yourself.
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