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Post by Crabb90 on Mar 11, 2010 12:09:56 GMT -5
3 words: religion is bullshit.
Plain and simple.
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Post by RandiKthxxx on Mar 11, 2010 15:54:20 GMT -5
Pretty vague, don't you think?
Why don't you explain your reasoning so we can understand why you feel this way.
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Post by swan on Mar 11, 2010 17:10:22 GMT -5
I do agree that Christian morals do not originate from Christianity itself, but Christianity's influence on morality (at least in the western world) has been huge. That said, even without Christianity we would still have morality, it would certainly be different but it would still be there. Well everything is bullshit to some degree ;D
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Philosoraptor
Moon
dangling prepositions is something up with which I shall not put
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Post by Philosoraptor on Mar 11, 2010 20:41:11 GMT -5
How would morality be different without Christianity? Apart from it being more simple, direct, and sensible?
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Post by Lex on Mar 11, 2010 21:19:49 GMT -5
How would morality be different without Christianity? Apart from it being more simple, direct, and sensible? Off topic, but Philosoraptor is probably one of the greatest usernames ever.
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Post by zAkAtAk on Mar 11, 2010 21:59:28 GMT -5
How would morality be different without Christianity? Apart from it being more simple, direct, and sensible? i lol'd
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pnla
Meteorite
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Post by pnla on Mar 12, 2010 12:50:11 GMT -5
How would morality be different without Christianity? Apart from it being more simple, direct, and sensible? Christianity's only morals are love God and love others... seems rather direct simple and sensible to me. Ok so the the first part is debatable as to whether or not it's sensible but the still.
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Post by Jake on Mar 12, 2010 12:59:40 GMT -5
I think a lot of people would have different morals if there was never religion. Of course there would still be morals because I believe people create morals themselves without a God. (Well, I don't believe in God so I believe Christians did create the morals themselves). I just think morals would be different and maybe not so strong.
But if everyone was suddenly to turn atheist right now then you're probably right - there would be very little change. In fact one advantage of having non-religion-based morals is you can work them out yourselves.
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Mar 12, 2010 16:34:43 GMT -5
There's an old Jewish joke, it goes something like this.
Two rabbis were having a discussion one evening. They spoke at length for several hours about whether or not God exists. In the end, they concluded that he did not, and went to bed. The following morning, one of the rabbis woke up to find his friend performing his morning prayers. He asked him, "Why are you doing your morning prayers, if you do not believe in God?" And the other rabbi replied, "What does God have to do with it?"
The point is, even in the absence of a belief in God, the religion we grew up with has become a part of our culture. The Jewish are one of the best visible examples, in that nearly everyone in their community openly describes themselves as Jews, regardless of whether they are religious or not; they know that it's not just their religion, but also the culture they've had for centuries.
Christians also have a centuries old culture, as Tyme4aNewDay points out. While most ex-Christian atheists do not refer to themselves as Christians like the Jews, it doesn't mean that we have to hate our prior culture. In this age of learning and science many of us come to the conclusion that there is no god, but that's no reason to sling mud at those who continue to do so. There are even a few "Christian Atheists" out there who believe that, while Jesus was not God nor the Son of God, he was a guy who had some really good ideas on morals and ethics, and a lot (though perhaps not all) of what he taught deserved to be learned. I can actually see that perspective myself. (He even touched on the separation of church and state: "Give unto Caesar...")
Now, that doesn't mean that you can't make your argument for or against there being a God. It merely means that you should make your argument in a tolerant and intelligent manner, and respect the other party if you do not come to an agreement. The only things worth opposing are fanaticism (When one mistakes their faith for knowledge, sometimes even ignoring known truths that oppose their way of thinking -- people who claim to know rather than believe. 6000 year old earth creationists are one example.) and nihilism (The atheist version of a fanatic in some senses, these are people who believe that because there is no God nor eternal life, nothing is worth anything and existence is pointless.) and the various flavours both come in (fundamentalism, obscurantism, terrorism, and so forth).
In conclusion, while you should continue to discuss the subject, please try to do so fairly and tolerantly. I have no more respect for an atheist who claims "religion is dumb" than I do for a theist who claims the same but opposite. Make rational arguments, offer your reasonings, but don't sling mud at each other. And remember that in an argument with two sides, you do not have to be opponents; the ultimate goal isn't to defeat the other guy, it's the pursuit of knowledge.
And finally, a note on morals and Christian values. Science has shown us the evolution of ethics -- how many of our moral values were things necessary to our success and survival as a species. It is natural then that even in the absence of belief, our core morals would be mainly unchanged. There would be some differences (mainly the theological ones naturally), but core ethics and morals are a part of our species even before religion comes into play; it's only natural that when our species developed its religions, it would include those same core ethics. Therefore while Christianity definitely had a huge cultural influence on the western world, it would be wrong to claim that morals and ethics similar to those we have today would not exist in some fashion in the absence of religion.
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Post by swan on Mar 12, 2010 17:07:45 GMT -5
Well said Nakor, I agree entirely.
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Philosoraptor
Moon
dangling prepositions is something up with which I shall not put
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Post by Philosoraptor on Mar 12, 2010 17:13:37 GMT -5
Indeed. Great post.
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LegacyOfPaper
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Post by LegacyOfPaper on Mar 12, 2010 17:17:26 GMT -5
I'm Roman Catholic. That's my view on religion and I don't care to explain why I am other than I think it has the most truth.
No religion can be entirely true, if it was, the world would be in a much better state. As a corollary, no religion can be entirely wrong, no matter how hard they try. I just think that I picked the one closest to the former.
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Philosoraptor
Moon
dangling prepositions is something up with which I shall not put
Posts: 145
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Post by Philosoraptor on Mar 12, 2010 18:01:52 GMT -5
You have a decent point, and I don't mean to nitpick, but can you honestly not imagine a religion that was entirely wrong? If I created a brand new religion right here on the spot, does it gain some credibility out of thin air?
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Post by Jake on Mar 13, 2010 20:23:58 GMT -5
To be honest, I don't get people who think that religion is pointless and refuse to see any good in it. I mean, I respect their opinions but I definitely don't understand their view.
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Philosoraptor
Moon
dangling prepositions is something up with which I shall not put
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Post by Philosoraptor on Mar 13, 2010 22:58:55 GMT -5
I'll attempt to explain.
Generally, it comes down to the idea that the core moral principles of humanity -- selflessness, compassion, generosity, what have you -- are not products of religion, as many theologians might claim. They are basic logical principles that humans possess because of our nature as a social creature, they would be just as important to us if religions had never been invented.
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on Mar 14, 2010 1:17:49 GMT -5
Also I think you may be misconstruing unnecessary with pointless. Many things that are unnecessary are not pointless. For example, games are unnecessary, but there is a point to having them. It is different to ask if religion is unnecessary (could society survive or thrive without it) than to ask if religion is pointless (is there any good to religion at all).
A lot of people (even a few of the religious) in this thread have given their opinion that religion is not necessary, but I don't think anyone has claimed it is pointless save perhaps for a few trolls who had nothing better to do than throw a single line insult and leave; they are best ignored along with the fanatics who are their equal-but-opposites.
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Post by Jake on Mar 14, 2010 6:13:56 GMT -5
Well, I do understand people (I am one) who think it is unnecessary or not required - that's not what I was trying to get across! I literally meant I don't get people who think it is pointless and would even consider stopping religion if they had it their way.
Society doesn't need religion to operate, but I know that some people do.
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Post by smilee on Mar 14, 2010 10:26:39 GMT -5
I am an Atheist who believes that there most likely is no God, but there is still a small chance in a very very very religious part of the United States. The only people that know about my lack of belief are my parents and a select few people in other parts of the country. My mom figured it out and has spent the last year of my life trying to get me to convert back to being Christian and telling me how disappointed she is and how horrible and empty my life will be without God. If anything this has had a reverse effect on me. The more she tries to force it on me, the more I shut it out because her actions are making my life miserable.
That being said, I've begun to reject religion due to the prominence it has played in making my life miserable. I've had an open mind since 3rd grade and I made my decision in 7th grade and my mom is telling me that I'm being a close-minded idiot. Also, I know I can't ever tell anyone at school because when I once went to Youth with a friend of mine, they discussed their mission--to convert the non-believers from their corrupt way of life. They were supposed to get non-Christians to become Christians by pretty much forcing it on them. When trying to figure out who the non-Christians were, they named some of the most poorly thought of people in the school saying about each, "He has to be an Atheist because he has no morals."
If I could I would force myself to believe to get through all of the crap I would get if I told anyone I would, but I can't. Just about every day I have revelations that bring my closer to Atheism and farther from everything else.
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Philosoraptor
Moon
dangling prepositions is something up with which I shall not put
Posts: 145
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Post by Philosoraptor on Mar 14, 2010 11:23:58 GMT -5
Jake: A lot of people consider religion ultimately detrimental to society. It's a case where the cons vastly outweigh the pros. Religion causes unnecessary hate, bigotry, and violence, and the benefits just aren't plentiful enough to even that out.
On one hand you have things like personal comfort and security. On the other hand you have, for example, bands of religious extremists who hijack a planes and fly them into skyscrapers because that's what their god wants them to do.
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Post by Joey on Mar 14, 2010 11:35:46 GMT -5
Hey, I just want to start out saying I'm Roman Catholic, but I know it isnt perfect, but like someone said, it has the most truth. And I agree, every belief has diffent extremes. You have the Christians who go around screaming at people to repent, but on the other hand you have atheists who go around and completely shun christians as if they are some sort of idiotic animal who doesnt know anything. Instead of judgeing people on the extemes of their belief, we need to talk to eachother like humans, which we are doing now.
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