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Jesus!
Apr 30, 2010 9:20:43 GMT -5
Post by newschooled on Apr 30, 2010 9:20:43 GMT -5
imo Jesus was an idea, not a real person inc hate WHERE'S JAMES CAMERON WHEN YOU NEED HIM?!?
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Jesus!
Apr 30, 2010 11:00:04 GMT -5
Post by bombmaniac on Apr 30, 2010 11:00:04 GMT -5
i dont think theres any doubt in anyone's mind that jesus WAS a person, there are numerous historical records of him aside from the new testament
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Jesus!
Apr 30, 2010 12:18:13 GMT -5
Post by click3tyclick on Apr 30, 2010 12:18:13 GMT -5
i dont think theres any doubt in anyone's mind that jesus WAS a person, there are numerous historical records of him aside from the new testament There was a guy named Jesus. He wasn't the son of god. He didn't walk on water.
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Jesus!
Apr 30, 2010 15:13:53 GMT -5
Post by bombmaniac on Apr 30, 2010 15:13:53 GMT -5
right
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Nakor
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Posts: 991
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Jesus!
Apr 30, 2010 18:15:08 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on Apr 30, 2010 18:15:08 GMT -5
I've always meant to look at some of the studies for and against him existing at all, and draw a real conclusion. For now I stick with if he did exist, he was just an ordinary guy, maybe with great ideas or maybe they were added later for the bible's sake.
I only just learned yesterday that apparently there were a few gospels never added to the bible; they were rejected. Thomas and Mary Magdalen off the top of my head, and a few others. Apparently these contradicted even more than the four that made it into the final bible. In one of them (Thomas?) Jesus was rather... playful we'll say, with his magical powers in his youth, lol.
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Apr 30, 2010 20:42:23 GMT -5
Post by IMAGINARYphilosophy on Apr 30, 2010 20:42:23 GMT -5
I only just learned yesterday that apparently there were a few gospels never added to the bible; they were rejected. Thomas and Mary Magdalen off the top of my head, and a few others. Apparently these contradicted even more than the four that made it into the final bible. In one of them (Thomas?) Jesus was rather... playful we'll say, with his magical powers in his youth, lol. If I remember correctly, the Gospel of Thomas contained a story about Jesus convincing his younger half-brother (yes, he had siblings in this version) to jump off a building, resulting in his brother's death. Jesus then brought his brother back to life. The Gospel of Mary Magdalen is famous from The DaVinci Code (by that other Dan Brown) for claiming Jesus and Mary were married. And there's also a Gospel of Judas, believe it or not. It paints a rather different picture of the crucifixion, wherein Jesus comes to Judas and convinces him to betray Jesus to the Romans because through his crucifixion the sins of all humanity will be forgiven. Which gospels and books you choose to believe is a matter of personal taste, but you should be always remember that no original copies of these writings exist today. Also the best estimate of when they were written makes it unlikely and in some cases impossible (the Gospel of John and the Book of Revelations, for example) that they were written by eye witnesses to Jesus' life.
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Apr 30, 2010 22:41:55 GMT -5
Post by rialvestro on Apr 30, 2010 22:41:55 GMT -5
Just saw Dan's video and I just wanted to say that I agree with him on about 90% of what he said.
However I do not believe there is a God.
If there is a God, I do agree that he would be an ass hole. Not for the sole reason that Dan said though I do agree with that reasoning but there are many other reasons why God is an ass hole. The main one is that according to the bible, in the Garden of Eden Adam and Even never got sick or hurt and presumably could not die. It was only after they broke the one rule God gave them which was not to eat from a certain tree (The tree of knowlage according to one version of the Bible I read) that they were kicked out of the garden and punished with sickness, pain, and death. And millions of years later their decendents are still suffering from that and we weren't even the ones that broke that stupid rule. We're being punished because of a stupid piece of fruit we never even touched.
Kings have been know to cut off heads if a pesant so much as stole from the royal garden and people didn't stand for that very long. Even thoughs kings never went as low as to kill their entire families. And that is why I think God is an ass hole... if you can prove he even exsists.
Now as for Jesus himself and the 3 L's. I can't say for sure if Jesus is a liar, a lunatic, or a lord but what I believe is that the so called Virgin Mary who was his mother may be the liar not Jesus. Because I do not believe she was a virgin. I believe that at that time they simply had no way to prove who the babies father was and I think Mary cheated on her husban. She couldn't claim the child was his so rather than risk her husban finding out she cheated on him she made up some story about how she was still a virgin and was pregnant with the son of God. People back then were allot more gullible than they are now so naturally they just believed her.
If you think of it in today's standards, this kinda thing happens all the time but now we can do DNA tests to find out who the father is and no one would seriously believe that a pregnant woman was still a virgin without testing her.
If it's possible to do DNA tests on people who have been dead that long I bet we could prove that Jesus has a mortal father by testing his DNA with all the men who may of been with his mother. This may not dissprove the exsistance of God but it would definatly dissprove that Jesus is the son of God if we can find a mortal father. And if we can't there's still a chance that his real father may still be burried somewhere else so it doesn't prove he is the son of God if we can't find a father.
This being said, if God does indeed exsist, and if Jesus is indeed his son I do hope that God is not the royal ass hole that the bible dipicts him as because that is not and never will be someone that I could worship. The God played by Morgan Freeman in Bruce Allmighty and Evan Allmighty is more the kind of God I would worship.
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Nakor
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Jesus!
Apr 30, 2010 22:43:09 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on Apr 30, 2010 22:43:09 GMT -5
Interesting. I may have to check them out one day purely as a point of curiosity (and from what you describe of Thomas, entertainment). You needn't worry about me putting my faith in them; I have less trust of the bible than of most other religious things lol.
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May 1, 2010 13:58:09 GMT -5
Post by Lex on May 1, 2010 13:58:09 GMT -5
The ending of his Re: Re: Jesus video summed up my opinions entirely.
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May 3, 2010 4:24:56 GMT -5
Post by michaelt1987 on May 3, 2010 4:24:56 GMT -5
If there is a God, I do agree that he would be an ass hole. Not for the sole reason that Dan said though I do agree with that reasoning but there are many other reasons why God is an ass hole. The main one is that according to the bible, in the Garden of Eden Adam and Even never got sick or hurt and presumably could not die. It was only after they broke the one rule God gave them which was not to eat from a certain tree (The tree of knowlage according to one version of the Bible I read) that they were kicked out of the garden and punished with sickness, pain, and death. And millions of years later their decendents are still suffering from that and we weren't even the ones that broke that stupid rule. We're being punished because of a stupid piece of fruit we never even touched. If you can claim that you have never sinned, then yes this complaint is legitmate. Otherwise, you really cannot complain. If Eden is unfair, so is Golgotha. The Bible explains that in the same way that sin enters the world through one man, so it leaves by one man. Now as for Jesus himself and the 3 L's. I can't say for sure if Jesus is a liar, a lunatic, or a lord but what I believe is that the so called Virgin Mary who was his mother may be the liar not Jesus. Because I do not believe she was a virgin. I believe that at that time they simply had no way to prove who the babies father was and I think Mary cheated on her husban. She couldn't claim the child was his so rather than risk her husban finding out she cheated on him she made up some story about how she was still a virgin and was pregnant with the son of God. People back then were allot more gullible than they are now so naturally they just believed her. No, they wern't. There is this strange patronising attitude we have of people from times before us. The fact is that people back then were not more guilible. They knew how babies were made, and they were not just going to believe her because she said "an angel came to me". Joseph did not believe her at first, and had planned to divorce her quietly. That is why the Angel came to him also, to tell him that she had not in fact been unfaithful This being said, if God does indeed exsist, and if Jesus is indeed his son I do hope that God is not the royal ass hole that the bible dipicts him as because that is not and never will be someone that I could worship. The God played by Morgan Freeman in Bruce Allmighty and Evan Allmighty is more the kind of God I would worship. See the God thread I posted. Its quite interesting on this subject.
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Jesus!
May 3, 2010 5:35:41 GMT -5
Post by rialvestro on May 3, 2010 5:35:41 GMT -5
If you can claim that you have never sinned, then yes this complaint is legitmate. Otherwise, you really cannot complain. Weather or not I have sinned has nothing to do with that argument. I'm talking about an entire race being punished for the actions of 2 individuals. Adam and Eve broke a rule, a rather stupid rule at that, by eating an apple. For this act they and their decendendents were cursed with illness, pain, suffering, and death which has not ended. And technically speaking if Jesus died for our sins then wouldn't we be let back in the Garden of Eden the moment he died? That simple fact right there kinda disproves the bibles own teachings. There's no reason what so ever that this punishment for a crime we never even commited should still be going on. Now if God wants to punish people for sins they did commit then fine but what the hell is up with this crap about Adam and Eve being the cause of everyone's suffering just because they ate a stupid piece of fruit. It's about the same as arresting every single black man in the world because one black man committed a crime. We don't, or at least most of us now days, don't punish an entire race based on the actions of a single individual. Now if you really want to argue weather or not I've sinned, that depends on what you believe sin is. Because from what I can tell everything is a sin according to the bible. But this is also contridicting sense we were told by God to reproduce, to procreate, but at the same time religion teaches kids that sex is a sin. I don't see how sex is a sin if God himself told us to do it. (that is if there is even a God.) Again, Jesus, died for our sins, or no, no he didn't because we're still being punished for our sins and sins we never even committed. Either she cheated on him or she was raped. And yes people back then did believe in anything, that's a known fact. Of course they knew how babies were made otherwise they wouldn't need the virgin lie. The point is whenever someone happens that people can't exsplain they blame it on something magical. And this went on many years after Jesus died. How do you think the Salem witch trials started? We still do it even to this day. Anything we can't understand we call magic. I was talking to someone on YouTube regarding a "Psychic Kids" video who refered to psychic abilitys as "magic powers". He actually used as part of his main argument to say that psychics aren't real saying that "there's no such thing as magic powers" which is true but I do believe in psychics and I don't believe there's anything magical about it. Anyway, the simple fact is, back in that time they didn't have the means to prove her a liar. She may of gotten someone to pose as an angel but I don't believe that Joseph ever saw one. It could also be that he made up the angel himself while he was drunk. There's allot of more likely reasons why Mary was pregnant than God did it. Why would God even need to make a mortal Pregnant in the first place? He created Adam from dirt and Eve from one of Adam's ribs. Again I'm not saying I know there isn't a God but what I am saying is that the God from the Bible does not exsist and the bible with all it's contridictions dissproves itself. From the very first story threwout it is just nothing more than fairy tales with plot holes larger than the state of Texas. I mean the way the Bible starts out we're all decended from Adam and Eve and they were told to reproduce but sex is a sin and incest is a sin but we're all related and have to reproduce... yeah I'm saying go have sex with your cousin, just that it doesn't make any sense how we're all related according to the bible when we're really not. I mean we do have DNA evidence to prove that. There may be a God but the Bible, church, and religion in general really has nothing to do with him. While I don't personally agree with this, it makes more sense than anything in the bible. My dad believes that God was an alien and that some humans saw this alien and not understanding what it was assumed it was a God. Which kinda fits the whole idea of "anything we don't understand is magic." The idea of a creator is the same thing, we understand the basics of sex to reproduce but how and when did the first occurance of reproduction take place or "which came first the chicken or the egg?" As something we don't understand we just made up the idea of a creator, God. Though personally I've always wandered if there's a God who created us then who created him? Everything had to come from somewhere right? My own theory on the begining of time is the temperal loop. That is that the last life on Earth will create the first life on Earth. Basically Time doesn't have a start or end, just a big circle.
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Jesus!
May 3, 2010 10:51:48 GMT -5
Post by mathonyst on May 3, 2010 10:51:48 GMT -5
I'm a Christian, and Im cool with whatever you beleive. There are ROMAN records of a man called Jesus, from Nazareth, who walked on the earth, and was cruified. It was the ROMANS who killed him, they didn't want him to be seen as the son of god or anyone special. First I have to explains. Few things; historians beleive, the less gaps there are between copies, the more copies there are, and of course, how similar the copies are all contribute to how trusted documents are. There are many older documents that historians beleive, And use as historical evidance, with fewer sources and gaps between the copies than the bible. The bible has THOUSANDS of millions of copies, all giving the same message and have the same accounts. The bible has it's first copies created only about 70 or so years after the original, and all copies since have been almost exactly the same. God, from the bible telling us, is not being an asshole, he can do whatever the heck he wants. This is GOD we're talking about. Would you want a little respect from the universe I you were God, he gave us free will, and we decided to not do what he wanted, and he sent his son to save us. He's given us all te chances we need to be in a loving relationship with him, even without sin between us and God. rialvestroGod made Mary pregnant as a virgin, to show how NORMAL Jesus was brought into the world, he wasn't going to be a shiney king from birth, making lasers and big flashes of light. He was born as a human, completely as a human, he didn't want to die at the cross, he wanted there to be another way, but he couldn't get out of it. And no, we are not all incest, I don't know it exactly off the top of my head, but one of Adam and Eve's offspring leaves them, it says he finds a wife and starts a family up, starting a different family. This could also have happened many other times, just the bible doesn't go into detail of many generations of men in Genesis. When you said everything we can't explain we call magic, I got confused.. Because there is always an explanation whims magic, magic tricks are all that. Tricks. Not real 'magic', there's always a logical explanation behind them. There are many arguments for and against God, Jesus and all religious things, I beleive what I've been taught because I've looked it up, checked it out. And I advise everyone to check it out, read through the bible, read theories, know exactly what you're talking about before you reject it. Many Aetheists trying to disproove God and the Bible have converted after researching it properly.
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Nakor
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Jesus!
May 3, 2010 12:12:54 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on May 3, 2010 12:12:54 GMT -5
No, they wern't. There is this strange patronising attitude we have of people from times before us. The fact is that people back then were not more guilible. They knew how babies were made, and they were not just going to believe her because she said "an angel came to me". Joseph did not believe her at first, and had planned to divorce her quietly. That is why the Angel came to him also, to tell him that she had not in fact been unfaithful Indeed, while they were ignorant of many things and used magic as the reason of much, they were very particularly not gullible as far as sex went; in fact, they were extraordinarily inquisitive, to a point we would now consider highly immoral. All this shouldn't lead us to accept angels though. This should lead us to wonder "Why would Joseph claim also that angels told him his wife had a virgin birth?" Perhaps there was some reason that he didn't want others to know his wife had cheated. Maybe the punishment would be death, and he wanted to keep her? There is very likely a rational explanation, even if we lack the means to look that far back. And all this assumes that the virgin birth wasn't merely added to the bible later (like the editing of Jesus' supposed birthplace in at least one of two dissenting gospels). You can't imagine how many atheists I've heard from whose reason for conversion is that they sat down and finally read the bible from start to finish, and realized that it was utterly impossible. And when someone has a whole lot of power, and starts punishing everyone who doesn't do as he says, or has the misfortune of not being born hebrew which apparently warrants slaughtered (old testament -- read through Judges for example), what do we call that person? Being all mighty doesn't excuse poor behaviour. Which means Genesis was not the beginning of all mankind after all... or did Yahweh only create the Hebrew, which is why it was okay for his people to slaughter everyone else old testament style, since they weren't created by him?
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Jesus!
May 3, 2010 14:09:58 GMT -5
Post by rialvestro on May 3, 2010 14:09:58 GMT -5
And no, we are not all incest, I don't know it exactly off the top of my head, but one of Adam and Eve's offspring leaves them, it says he finds a wife and starts a family up, starting a different family. This could also have happened many other times, just the bible doesn't go into detail of many generations of men in Genesis. But your forgetting the fact that the Bible says Adam and Eve were the first and only 2 people so the only relationships their offspring could of had is with eachother. The bible does mention a village near by but says nothing about where this village came from. For all we know it was just populated by Adam and Eve's children. And we are taught that everyone decended from them so that would make sense. It could also be that God created more than 1 man and 1 woman but the bible never says this and no one ever teaches it that way. Not talking about magic tricks. We know that's fake, it's just for entainment. I'm talking about real magic. What people have mistaken for real magic is actually just science. The idea of witches mixing potions inside of magic couldren for example is most likely mixing chemicals to cause a reaction which is now something we learn about in science class when we're children. The first person to figure out chemical reaction was most likly prosicuted as a witch. And I don't see how that is true because researching is what made me an Aetheist in the first place. I was taught from the Bible when I was little and I wasn't about to just sit back and blindly accept everything I was taught as fact so I questioned everything in the bible that didn't make sense to me. And the only thing I learned as that even the people who teach the bible can non explain everything that is wrong with it. You claim to have done research so show me some of this research? Because from what I've learned even the so called messengers of God don't understand his teachings. In fact every time I've questioned the Bible people get so frustrated that they don't have an answer that they've never come back to teach me again. That's kinda why I believe that some people need to believe in a higher power. I have no idea what happen to any of thoughs people after I questioned the bible but I've never seen any of them again and non of them had answers for me. Which is ironic considering "the bible has all the answers" which if that's true why do I have so many questions left unanswered. Pluse if you've actually done research as you claim you'd know that every version of the bible tells a slightly different story and they can't all be true. Jahava's witness for example believe that Jesus died on a steak with his hands abouve his head not on a cross with his arms out stretched. Historically we know for a fact that people of that time were in fact hung on crosses but not everything in the bible can be historically proven. Of course history also tells us that Jesus was Jewish, even the Bible says that which is odd that the savier for any religion would teach that person was not even part of their religion. And the Jewish people seem to be the only ones that don't believe in Jesus as the Lord. I would think the Lord would be a member of his own religion not an entirely different religion but the religion he was part of don't see him as a Lord so that doesn't make any sense either. Anyway, still, I'm not trying to disprove the exsistance of God. I'm just disproving the exsistance of the God dipicted in the Bible. There may still be a God but as the Bible has been translated retold, rewriten, ect. ect. the Bible does not accurately tell who God was or is. The bible in it's many incarnations does a fairly good job of disproving itself but even if the Bible is a lie that doesn't nessisarily mean that God is a lie but personally unless God himself comes down to the Earth and tells me that he is real, I'm going to believe that he isn't.
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T3CHN0B4BBL3
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Self-proclaimed zombie, trying to a find cure
Posts: 162
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Jesus!
May 3, 2010 20:47:28 GMT -5
Post by T3CHN0B4BBL3 on May 3, 2010 20:47:28 GMT -5
Of course history also tells us that Jesus was Jewish, even the Bible says that which is odd that the savier for any religion would teach that person was not even part of their religion. And the Jewish people seem to be the only ones that don't believe in Jesus as the Lord. I would think the Lord would be a member of his own religion not an entirely different religion but the religion he was part of don't see him as a Lord so that doesn't make any sense either. To be Christian is to follow Christ so obviously they wouldn't call Jesus Christian because the term wasn't coined until after he was crucified. To be Jewish can mean two things: being born in Israel (or is it Jerusalem?) or being of the Judaistic religion. When they say that Jesus was Jewish, they mean that he was from Jewish descendants. On a side note, I think that many people don't know that some of the books in the Old Testament are also in the Torah and Quran.
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Jesus!
May 4, 2010 16:21:29 GMT -5
Post by rialvestro on May 4, 2010 16:21:29 GMT -5
I just thought of another great example for how people contribute science to magic.
Even in todays day and age when everyone understands the science of reproduction we still claim that child birth is a miracle.
Maybe the world miracle has lost it's meaning but I'm pretty sure a miracle is something wonderful that can't be explained by science. Miracle = magic.
So why do we call it a miracle? Because there are still things we don't fully understand about it, mainly the creation of a new soul. There's little if anything about the human body we don't understand but there's still something about the soul we fail to understand. Mainly if it even really exsists so every time a new soul is born it's a miracle, it's magic.
I don't think souls are magical at all but I believe they exsist and can be explained some day with science.
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Nakor
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Jesus!
May 4, 2010 18:46:58 GMT -5
Post by Nakor on May 4, 2010 18:46:58 GMT -5
I'd say there is actually a lot we don't fully understand about the human body yet, the vast majority of which deals with the brain. That, if anything, is what people are probably referring to when they speak about our consciousness as a "soul." It is another form of emergence in all likelihood, just like life itself, and just like the vast majority of matter in the universe.
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May 4, 2010 19:14:23 GMT -5
Post by michaelt1987 on May 4, 2010 19:14:23 GMT -5
Weather or not I have sinned has nothing to do with that argument. I'm talking about an entire race being punished for the actions of 2 individuals. Adam and Eve broke a rule, a rather stupid rule at that, by eating an apple. For this act they and their decendendents were cursed with illness, pain, suffering, and death which has not ended. If you've sinned, you've done the same thing as the garden of Eden. You've broken the same rule, so its not the sin of Adam that is seperating you from God. And technically speaking if Jesus died for our sins then wouldn't we be let back in the Garden of Eden the moment he died? That simple fact right there kinda disproves the bibles own teachings. There's no reason what so ever that this punishment for a crime we never even commited should still be going on. Jesus dying for our sin gives us a choice. We can either accept what he did for us, or we dont. If we do, then we will eventually return to an Eden like state. If we don't, we wont. Its that simple. Now if you really want to argue weather or not I've sinned, that depends on what you believe sin is. Because from what I can tell everything is a sin according to the bible. But this is also contridicting sense we were told by God to reproduce, to procreate, but at the same time religion teaches kids that sex is a sin. I don't see how sex is a sin if God himself told us to do it. (that is if there is even a God.) Religion doesnt teach that sex is a sin. It teaches that sleeping around is a sin. That sex outside of marriage is a sin. Not everything is a sin, if you actually read the Bible. Again, Jesus, died for our sins, or no, no he didn't because we're still being punished for our sins and sins we never even committed. No, we're not. We're seperated from God but that isn't the same as being punished for our sins. Hell is punishment for sins. Either she cheated on him or she was raped. And yes people back then did believe in anything, that's a known fact. Of course they knew how babies were made otherwise they wouldn't need the virgin lie. The point is whenever someone happens that people can't exsplain they blame it on something magical No, they didnt. The time of the anchient Egyptians (well before Anchient Rome) had some of the greatest scientific and medical advancments ever. They were not gulible fools. Do you really think Joseph would believe a random story of "an Angel came to me" when his and her life would be on the line? Because remember, that's what the punishment was for a family with a child out of Wedlock. Stoning. Anyway, the simple fact is, back in that time they didn't have the means to prove her a liar. She may of gotten someone to pose as an angel but I don't believe that Joseph ever saw one. It could also be that he made up the angel himself while he was drunk. And yet it was recorded as he was sober. Why would he make up a story like that that no one would believe.
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May 4, 2010 19:57:48 GMT -5
Post by rialvestro on May 4, 2010 19:57:48 GMT -5
If you've sinned, you've done the same thing as the garden of Eden. You've broken the same rule, so its not the sin of Adam that is seperating you from God. No I have not done the same thing. It's not even possible for me to do the same thing. I have not broken the same rule. That's like saying that if I broke one law that I should charged and punished for all the laws my grandfather broke. Oh well he stole a candy bar when he was 5 so we'll arrest him for rape because it's the same crime. No one will and no one has returned. That's just a plain and simple fact. Ever heard the phrase "Life is hell"? Well that explains allot right there. If he realized his life was on the line he'd do anything to save his own life. And yes they were gulible fools. This is well documented. And the people who came up with thoughs scientific and medical advancments weren't even accepted till many years later. Look how long after someone first said the Earth is round before that became a proven fact. For one thing you just said his life was in danger so there's an obvious reason. For another what do you mean "that no one would believe" people did believe him that's the whole point.
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May 5, 2010 3:07:55 GMT -5
Post by michaelt1987 on May 5, 2010 3:07:55 GMT -5
No I have not done the same thing. It's not even possible for me to do the same thing. I have not broken the same rule. You have not broken the same law but you have broken the law. That is what sin is. The point of the law in the garden of eden was that it was rebellion against God. That's like saying that if I broke one law that I should charged and punished for all the laws my grandfather broke. Oh well he stole a candy bar when he was 5 so we'll arrest him for rape because it's the same crime. Except you yourself have sinned. The thing about the punishment is that it is for sinning. The only way into heaven without Jesus is to be perfect. God knew however that once we had sin, it was impossible for us to be perfect. Hence he sent Jesus to be perfect for us. The punishment is the same in so far as it is hell, but hell is not the same all the way through. Its more the same in that you will be punished, rather than what that punishment is. And yes they were gulible fools. This is well documented. And the people who came up with thoughs scientific and medical advancments weren't even accepted till many years later. Look how long after someone first said the Earth is round before that became a proven fact. Actually, thats a myth. The anchienct Greeks knew the Earth to be round for some time. These people were not guilible fools. The Romans understood about sanitation and healthcare exceptionally well, as did the Greeks and others. They didnt just believe that it was the Gods doing things. They knew it had real world causes. For one thing you just said his life was in danger so there's an obvious reason. For another what do you mean "that no one would believe" people did believe him that's the whole point. If the angel explaination is more widely believed, why is it not more recorded? I'm sure there were dozens, if not hundruds of instances where it would have been useful for someone to say "an angel told me" and yet that isn't what we find.
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