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Post by Lex on Jul 28, 2010 19:19:09 GMT -5
All religion-vs.-atheism topics are beating a dead horse. It's a debate forum, though, so you just kind of have to get used to it. I know, it just seems no matter what part of religion, be it miracles or Jesus, it all ends up being God vs. No God. Because in any of those topics, some twit has to pop in and say "God doesn't exist, stupid christfags" or something rude to that effect.
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Post by bombmaniac on Jul 28, 2010 20:12:21 GMT -5
it all depends on your approach. if youre here to actually convince people...get out. if youre here because you enjoy rational debate, and a good challenge, come on in personally i will never agree with the atheists here, but i enjoy debating with them most of the time, because its not about convincing. its about having fun exchanging ideas and debating.
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Post by Lex on Jul 28, 2010 20:17:03 GMT -5
it all depends on your approach. if youre here to actually convince people...get out. if youre here because you enjoy rational debate, and a good challenge, come on in personally i will never agree with the atheists here, but i enjoy debating with them most of the time, because its not about convincing. its about having fun exchanging ideas and debating. But nothing will ever come out of a debate. Everything's been done and most people have heard it all. I'm just pissed with the hardcore atheists who hate all religious people, the ones who pop up just to tell everyone that they're stupid if they believe in God.
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Post by bombmaniac on Jul 28, 2010 20:38:12 GMT -5
i still find it fun and yes i know, that does piss me off two...as you said nothing will ever come of any of this so all we can gain from this is having fun with reasoned debate. such people just ruin the whole experience.
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Post by Ryan on Jul 28, 2010 20:52:05 GMT -5
Ok, everyone here seems to have overlooked the point of this thread. Or at least - misunderstood it, or I am simply misunderstanding it.
Sean basically stated: "I believe God is a load of bull crap, try and convince me otherwise" (If this rewording is incorrect or not accurate, then the rest of the post is meaningless, please tell me and I'll delete the rest).
So this thread is not prove/disprove the existence/nonexistence of a deity. It is simply to persuade Sean that the Christian's deity is not a load of bull crap.
Unfortunately - I find that there is no such method of persuasion, because according to the contradictions of the bible, the perfect Christian God is not actually perfect and is therefore a paradox - and quite simply cannot exist.
If you instead choose to ask us to persuade you that a different deity perhaps is not a load of crap (perhaps a god, and not God) then there are many methods of persuasion that could work.
And Alex, you officially confuse the crap out of me.
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Post by Lex on Jul 28, 2010 21:23:41 GMT -5
I don't think he mentioned the Christian God specifically
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Post by 4iner on Jul 28, 2010 21:43:37 GMT -5
according to the contradictions of the bible, the perfect Christian God is not actually perfect and is therefore a paradox - and quite simply cannot exist. Can you explain what you mean by this? And Alex, you officially confuse the crap out of me. I second this, and bomb is confusing me as well. As for the whole "noone's opinion will ever change" idea, I simply cannot agree. For one, I am a Christian, and would probably become an atheist if someone could show that: -It's unlikely that Jesus existed, or if he did exist, it's unlikely that he was accurately portrayed by the bible. And -Sehnsucht (along a few other things) can be reasonably explained through purely naturalistic evolution. Edit: Or -The existence of the Christian god creates an unexplainable contradiction with something that we know to be true.
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Post by Ryan on Jul 28, 2010 21:58:56 GMT -5
The Christian God is the only one named 'God', or at least the only mainstream deity with that name. Granted, the those who follow Judaism do call Him God, I believe that the Torah names Him Yahweh, and though these religions share the same deity of Islam, that religion names their deity Allah.
This is why I assumed Sean mean the Christian God.
Also - the contradictions in the bible - I will get back to you on that: my friend (metoyou on these forums - though he doesn't browse often) has a very valid argument detailing many of the contradictions of the Bible that show that the perfect God is indeed a paradox.
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Philosoraptor
Moon
dangling prepositions is something up with which I shall not put
Posts: 145
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Post by Philosoraptor on Jul 29, 2010 4:46:51 GMT -5
Because in any of those topics, some twit has to pop in and say "God doesn't exist, stupid christfags" or something rude to that effect. OR some hardcore religious bloke has to pop in and say "You can't disprove God, so there's an equal possibility on either side!"/"You can't say that, it's against my beliefs!"/"You can't say that, you'll offend people!"/"Why can't atheists just be nice! They're all so rude and depressed!" or something equally silly or rude. it works both ways. still, those are extremes, and of course not all atheists and not all religious people are like that.
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Post by Lex on Jul 29, 2010 11:11:42 GMT -5
How am I being confusing?
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Post by bombmaniac on Jul 29, 2010 12:50:38 GMT -5
idk...ryan is confusing
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Post by low on Jul 29, 2010 19:13:19 GMT -5
From Merriam-Webster's online dictionary: I'll try to combine them into an easier definition to work with than multiple definitions: "Strong belief in and devotion to something without regards to whether or not it can be verified with evidence." Does everyone agree to this definition? For everyone who wishes to convince someone that there is a god, we would like to know properties about this god, including historical facts about this god that you're willing to wager as verifiable or falsifiable. If you choose to define a god as a being with no physical properties who has no claims to an imprint of physical properties on the known world, then you have absolutely no clout in a debate because you have not introduced any claims which are verifiable or falsifiable. You cannot expect someone else to believe something extraordinary which you cannot demonstrate to be true. So for anyone who simply says something to the likes of "You can't explain the universe, therefore God exists," you're quite full of crap. Do you know what close-minded means? It doesn't mean believing what you believe, it means willing to consider possibilities. We who do not believe in god base that lack of belief on a lack of evidence and we don't commit to the belief in a god without evidence because that is limiting the scope of other possibilities and creating a condition of mind which is impervious to new evidence and unreceptive to new ideas.
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Post by Ryan on Jul 29, 2010 19:49:30 GMT -5
I as a deist, believe that the universe has a creator and I define that creator to be the god in which I hold belief of existence. If you think that the universe in all of its magnificent glory was created out of pure chance, then I pity you - not for your lack of belief in something greater - for I do not doubt that you do believe in something greater than yourself, but indeed for your close mindedness in accepting that something so amazing - was just an accident.
This is why I believe there is a god, you may chose to believe what you wish though - as I have no evidence nor reasoning that you should believe as I do.
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Post by lolsall on Jul 29, 2010 19:53:22 GMT -5
i believe some aspects of god but theoreticlly the bible is man written not written by god and it has also been edited into SOO many different versions its just not true anymore. There is also and scientific theory that is basiclly "SHIRT happens deal with it." And most of the time i believe this over god any day.
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Post by bgreen on Jul 29, 2010 20:19:53 GMT -5
I don't really think it matters. Shocking, I know. Think about this: whether there is or isn't a God, we should all strive to be "good" according to the morals of our mind, and make the most out of our time on earth. If the god of any of the main religions exists, he/she/bannana is perfect and loving right? so do your best and surely he/she/chair will take care of your afterlife (if that exists too). If you will be sent to hell for not being specifically part of his/her/rainstorms' religious sect, who wants to serve such a spiteful and biased God anyway? I say no matter what self-improvement, the pursuit of happiness, morality according to your own values surpasses the importance of deciding whether or not to worship whichever God in your time on earth. 'Nuff said? ;D
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Post by Lex on Jul 29, 2010 20:24:43 GMT -5
If you will be sent to hell for not being specifically part of his/her/rainstorms' religious sect, who wants to serve such a spiteful and biased God anyway? Their logic => because He would be the ONLY GOD. Therefore, worship is necessary. They have it drilled into their heads that only that brand of God can exist. They do it out of fear, not love. One cannot love such a monster. They believe in some sort of debt that we all owe to their type of monstrous God for being the subject of His creation. We would have to worship Him. To do otherwise is like telling them that you aren't grateful for your life.
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Philosoraptor
Moon
dangling prepositions is something up with which I shall not put
Posts: 145
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Post by Philosoraptor on Jul 29, 2010 21:02:00 GMT -5
No need for pity here, bro. I think the infinitely grand, majestic, chaotic origins and inner workings of the universe and its inhabitants are one of the most beautiful and (dare I say) spiritual ideas a human being can experience.
I find an unrivaled amount of beauty and brilliance just in the bits of the universe that we know about. No extra bells and whistles, no supernatural footnotes, just the real, tangible, observable universe and all the brilliant natural things in it.
Your offer of pity on behalf of my creator-less universal predicament is mildly offensive, really. But I appreciate the thought.
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Post by low on Jul 29, 2010 21:15:53 GMT -5
I as a deist, believe that the universe has a creator and I define that creator to be the god in which I hold belief of existence. If you think that the universe in all of its magnificent glory was created out of pure chance, then I pity you - not for your lack of belief in something greater - for I do not doubt that you do believe in something greater than yourself, but indeed for your close mindedness in accepting that something so amazing - was just an accident. This is why I believe there is a god, you may chose to believe what you wish though - as I have no evidence nor reasoning that you should believe as I do. Unless of course our evolution plays a huge part in the reason why we consider the universe to be particularly great (and while you can call the universe accident or pure chance, it's very well established that chance is not the case with natural selection, where successive traits over time are favored over others). The notion that beauty in a partner has evolutionary significance is nothing to scoff at, intellectually (relative to health and fertility--genes preferable for proliferation of ones own genes), thus I see no reason why our own concept of awe and wonder within the universe isn't up for inquiry of evolutionary purpose. Another thing is to imagine other possible universes and what about them may or may not be considered beautiful or even purposeful. When you really think hard about it, you realize we're only imagining variations of our own universe. Our minds evolved strategically for the universe we live in. We're leaving out so many intangibles about other universes. Maybe we would consider other universes ugly on the grounds that our brains couldn't simply process anything at all about them...because they didn't evolve for them. It's an unknown unknown in that we do not know what we do not know. On the issue of probability, you can't think of probability after the event has already occurred. It's useless. I'll use the words of Richard Feynman to explain why: And then youtubes jesusophile explaining it a rather lulz-worthy way (skip to around 2:20 for the brilliance): Also, it's not close-minded to not accept the idea of some greater power. We don't define a greater power (or lack thereof), nor rule out lesser powers...or lack thereof. Need I reiterate: not believing something isn't inherently close-minded just as believing something isn't inherently gullible. An opinion that is evidence based doesn't fall into the category of gullibility nor close-mindedness.
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Post by Ryan on Jul 29, 2010 21:39:56 GMT -5
My reason for calling the universe and grand design the work of a creator and impeccably magnificent is this. We exist - that is not significant. We exist on an orb of rock that is mostly covered in water and whose outer layer of rock is constantly moving. That's cool. This orb of rock is rotating around a huge orb of gas. That's impressive. This orb of rock isn't the only thing orbiting the huge orb of gas. That's amazing. This huge orb of gas isn't the only one out there. That is incredible. Other orbs of gas have other orbs of rock and gas orbiting them. Some orbs of gas and or rock orbit more than one orb of gas. That's mind blowing. There are black holes where gravity has accumulated so much mass in a small volume that light can't escape it. That's crazy. There's quasars, and super novas, and nebulas, and space gas, and meteors, and comets, and all sorts of other cool things. And all of these are in a galaxy. This is downright unbelievable. And to top it all off, with billions of light years of separation between them, there is more than 1 galaxy. This has nothing to do with odds, or evolution or anything, but the shear fact that all of this even exists is enough to question if its all a dream or not. And then to associate all the incredibility of all of what is out there - to an accident is close minded.
Now, evolution has nothing to do with chance as you said. But evolution works by weeding out bad traits and keeping good ones. Good ones turn into better ones, and the traits that didn't get better die out like the bad ones. Imagine bacteria without DNA, simply a mix of enough proteins and chemicals to be considered bacteria.
Now that bacteria had a trait that was good, and it kept it, while other bacteria had bad traits - so those bacteria died out. Eventually, the bacteria developed DNA and all sorts of other good traits. These traits kept getting better, soon we had not just one surviving type of bacteria, but several different types, each with new traits and different traits, that kept evolving. Each of these bacteria changed into all sorts of new single celled organisms - thousands of them, enough capable of turning the sulfuric atmosphere into liquid water. As the earth filled with water all these new single celled organisms kept evolving. Soon there were multi-celled organisms. Then animals, and plants. Then there were BILLIONS of different creatures living on this world. Eventually some of them died off, their traits weren't as good as some of the others' traits. Soon these creatures had hard bodies. And then spines. And then there were land animals and land plants. And then there mammals and reptiles. And then even dinosaurs. And then primates. And then us. Now, if that story is not downright incredible the more you think about it, then I have no idea what you find to be awe inspiring. And then if you tell me, that no where along the chain, could one of those traits been slightly different, altering the ENTIRE chain of events that took place, perhaps an organism developed so that some ancestor of the primate didn't exist. Or perhaps mammals were so inferior to dinosaurs that they went extinct long before dinosaurs did. Or perhaps spines never formed. While these traits were found favorable when they occurred - it is possible (and not by any calculatable chance) that they didn't occur at all. And yet - here we are.
I associate all these amazing things to whatever started the universe. And as I said before, I define a god to be whatever started the universe. I don't think of evolution as a word or as a definition that define what it is, I think of it as I described above. I don't think of the universe as a place beyond understanding, I think of it as I described above. And if you can wrap your brain around the complexities that surround our very existence, perhaps you will also believe that is not just the result of some great big accident.
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Post by bombmaniac on Jul 29, 2010 22:41:49 GMT -5
lolsall not every version of the bible has been edited. there are originals. i would know @bgreed pascals wager essentially alex you have the mindset wrong that's not why religious people obey the word of god as they see it. or at least that's not WHY they should do it. ryan i think there is what to be said for calculating odds of evolution...assuming you don't buy into teh idea that microbes from wherever flew to earth and evolved...ambiogenesis alone is not only unlikely but would be an extremely lengthy process which would bite into a large chunk of 4.5 billion...add on to that all the evolutions necessary from where we started according to evolutionists, and today...it would be interesting if it were possible to calculate the number of generations from the beginni8ng of the world until today for the various species we see today in the world...the mutations necessary would probably not have happened in one generation... assuming you DO buy in to the alien microbe idea, then you still have the odds against you. low your argument is invalid, because the odds are not absolutely closed. we can technically recreate it. subject species x to condition y and see how fast they change. no matter how long it takes, it is possible to recreate and therefore speculating odds would be valid.
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