kshults
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Teach me what you can
Posts: 73
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Post by kshults on May 23, 2010 11:31:51 GMT -5
I voted yes, it is offensive (not to me but to many Muslims). People seem to be approaching this like the question is "Should we be allowed to draw Muhammed?". Yes, we have the right to draw Muhammed if we want, but we have the responsibility to respect people's religions. We do indeed have that obligation, but when people's religions try to take away what we believe in (i.e. freedom of speech), then we need to take a stand. they think that muhammed shouldn't be drawn? Fine. They think that they can kill people if they draw muhammed? No. That's not fine. not at all. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about all followers of the muslim faith, only those certain extremists (Cannot stress that enough) To condemn what we are doing as purely offensive and say we should have never done it is not only bullshit, but I find it highly offensive! Don't condemn what we've done, condemn the people that have forced us into this situation in the first place.
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on May 23, 2010 12:00:04 GMT -5
It just strikes me that the last time I heard people saying that something I was in favour of was offensive and shouldn't be done in public, we were discussing the atheist bus ads. Those offended Christians, who didn't want to see the message that there was no god in a public place. That was an expression of atheists trying to let others know that it's okay to be an atheist (many of the ads were aimed at people who were basically already agnostic/atheist, but were hiding it for fear of persecution), and even if it offended Christians, we had a right and good reason to have those ads in public.
This is similar. That time the good reason was to let people know that being an atheist does not equate to being evil or immoral; that we're good, decent people too. This time the message is that we will not give in to threats of violence. Again the message offends some people, but I think that's just something people have to get used to. Nobody has a right not to be offended. Christians didn't have a right not to be offended by seeing "there is probably no god" signs, and Muslims don't have a right not to be offended by seeing drawings of Muhammed.
I know the action seems rash and not well thought out, but I thought about it for quite a bit, as did many others. The fact is, everyone will see things or hear things that will offend them. But they have to learn to live with that; not everybody thinks the same as them. If you want to get on well in North America, you have to be prepared for the fact that you will find some things offensive, and that you don't have a right to censor them because of that. You can be offended all you want, but you can't silence it any more than we can silence Westboro Baptist Church, and the best thing to do is, as Dan Brown so often says of late, "Deal with it."
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Post by Jake on May 23, 2010 12:34:22 GMT -5
I voted yes, it is offensive (not to me but to many Muslims). People seem to be approaching this like the question is "Should we be allowed to draw Muhammed?". Yes, we have the right to draw Muhammed if we want, but we have the responsibility to respect people's religions. We do indeed have that obligation, but when people's religions try to take away what we believe in (i.e. freedom of speech), then we need to take a stand. they think that muhammed shouldn't be drawn? Fine. They think that they can kill people if they draw muhammed? No. That's not fine. not at all. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about all followers of the muslim faith, only those certain extremists (Cannot stress that enough) To condemn what we are doing as purely offensive and say we should have never done it is not only bullshit, but I find it highly offensive! Don't condemn what we've done, condemn the people that have forced us into this situation in the first place. I just feel like it's hardly the most appropriate or mature way to deal with things - to draw Muhammad. Extremists are already looking for as many excuses as possible for terrorist attacks, so drawing Muhammad is simply going to encourage them and offend the innocent Muslims. I mean, we're "making a stand" against how they believe that we shouldn't be drawing Muhammad, when we should be focussing on bigger problems, such as believing homosexuality should be punished, or men should have authority over women.
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kshults
Meteor
Teach me what you can
Posts: 73
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Post by kshults on May 23, 2010 12:42:31 GMT -5
We do indeed have that obligation, but when people's religions try to take away what we believe in (i.e. freedom of speech), then we need to take a stand. they think that muhammed shouldn't be drawn? Fine. They think that they can kill people if they draw muhammed? No. That's not fine. not at all. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about all followers of the muslim faith, only those certain extremists (Cannot stress that enough) To condemn what we are doing as purely offensive and say we should have never done it is not only bullshit, but I find it highly offensive! Don't condemn what we've done, condemn the people that have forced us into this situation in the first place. I just feel like it's hardly the most appropriate or mature way to deal with things - to draw Muhammad. Extremists are already looking for as many excuses as possible for terrorist attacks, so drawing Muhammad is simply going to encourage them and offend the innocent Muslims. I mean, we're "making a stand" against how they believe that we shouldn't be drawing Muhammad, when we should be focussing on bigger problems, such as believing homosexuality should be punished, or men should have authority over women. the point is to give the extremists a target too big to hit. I think we've done that quite nicely. and last time I checked, we've all condemned that about them, but they've painted a bigger target than we can hit with the scale of hatred towards homosexuals, and oppression towards women. There isn't a simple fix to any of these problems, but with the draw muhammed day, a solution to one of the problems was proposed, and accepted by a large group of people. If you can propose a viable solution to how we can work towards ending women inequality, or homosexual hatred, then speak up and I'll gladly join in on that as well. Hell, if I manage to figure something out, I'll speak up and get a movement started.
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Post by RandiKthxxx on May 23, 2010 14:41:31 GMT -5
Nakor, I think we could go back and forth on this all day, but the fact of the matter is we just don't agree. I don't agree that this is the right way to defend our right to free speech. I don't think that they should just get over it. I can not and will not bring myself to knowingly disrespect someone else's culture. I'm not downing the right to free speech, but it goes against my own personal morals to do something like this and I just can't and won't get behind it.
Also, you limited your post to only people in North America, it's not just Muslims over here, it's Muslims everywhere, just wanted to point that out.
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Post by Jake on May 23, 2010 15:43:54 GMT -5
I don't agree that this is the right way to defend our right to free speech. I don't think that they should just get over it. I can not and will not bring myself to knowingly disrespect someone else's culture. I'm not downing the right to free speech, but it goes against my own personal morals to do something like this and I just can't and won't get behind it. This is very much how I feel. Over a billion people believe Muhammed should not be drawn, and just as we have the right to free speech, Muslims have the right to free belief/thought. By "exercising our right to free speech", we are indirectly going against their (freedom to) belief. And I don't think that is right at all. (I realise what I just said may not have made much sense)
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jaw
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Post by jaw on May 23, 2010 15:54:39 GMT -5
This is why I hate religion. Why can't we follow our own morals? No one knows what he looks like. There seriously is no harm drawing a fictional person. (I say fictional because no one knows what he looks like, therefore every drawing of him is fictional)
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Post by Jake on May 23, 2010 15:58:18 GMT -5
There seriously is no harm drawing a fictional person. There wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't causing harm. It going against an entire religion seems good enough to be harm.
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jaw
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Post by jaw on May 23, 2010 16:02:35 GMT -5
There seriously is no harm drawing a fictional person. There wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't causing harm. It going against an entire religion seems good enough to be harm. Denying someone their freedom of speech simply because it's not something you believe in is more harmful in my opinion.
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Post by binini on May 23, 2010 16:30:24 GMT -5
Why should you need to draw him, it doesn't concern you in any way, your life wont be effected by it.
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Post by takerusaleh on May 23, 2010 18:20:57 GMT -5
people you DO NOT get the point, no one wants to take away your freedom of speech, you can draw as many pictures as you like and do whatever you want, that's your decision, and as a Muslim I may not agree with it but I respect and accept your decision. but it is just not right to make it an official world wide day, and to involve all those people who do not really understand what that drawing means. Nor is it right to direct them to us Muslims. this is (well kind of) a part of the religion that we believe in, and all of you out there have to accept that we have different beliefs as much as we have to do about you.
It's also an important point to mention that you are not offending us, but you are criticizing a person that is very important to us, and this hurts many Muslims feelings. It is not the fact that the drawing is offensive but hurting and disrespectful. you can do what you like but you don't have to direct it to us. That's like cutting someone and then putting salt into the wound. And if someone threatens you, it's there way of defending them selves, in other words their freedom of speech. Don't get me wrong, I in no way associate with radicals and extremists, for that I think they do many wrong things. But it's a fact that they are free to believe in what ever they want. If they see it as wrong and not allowed in the Islam, then that's their choice and freedom of speech. And by going against this you are just putting oil into the fire and giving them more reasons to terrorise you. And what would you benefit anyway from a drawing? other than the part of the target to big to hit. Now if you participated in the DMD then explain to me why and what YOUR PERSONAL reasons are?
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Post by swan on May 23, 2010 19:02:24 GMT -5
If the Muslim community wants to believe that drawing Muhammad is offensive then fine, they have every right to do so. They do not, however, have the right to force that belief onto the non-Muslim community. Since the radical Muslims have historically done this with violent, terrorist methods, Draw Muhammad day originated as a response and a message to the radicals that we will not be bullied and they cannot remove our rights.
This is not just about drawing Muhammad, it is about our right to criticize what we believe to be unjust aspects of Islam. Like a previous poster pointed out, there is a difference between criticism and defamation, we have no right to defame Islam but we have every right to criticize it, and that is what freedom of speech is, the right to speak your mind and criticize the unjust. However the radical Muslims have historically resorted to inaccurate claims of intolerance and terrorism as a way of defending themselves from these critiques. That is anti-freedom of speech, having to silence your critics instead of refuting them. That is what happened in 2004 when film director Theo Van Gogh was brutally murdered by muslim extremists for making a film that harbored criticism of the way women are treated in Islam.
If you were offended by some of the depictions of Muhammad then I apologize, some of people who participated in the event did so for the wrong reasons, but I assure you that DMD was not intended to simply offend the moderate Muslim community, but instead to send a message to the radicals.
"The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it" - John Stuart Mill
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Nakor
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Post by Nakor on May 23, 2010 20:53:50 GMT -5
Also, you limited your post to only people in North America, it's not just Muslims over here, it's Muslims everywhere, just wanted to point that out. Aye, I could have mentioned Europe too, but at the same time I didn't want to touch on the actual Muslim nations. Not that I don't want all the freedoms there that we enjoy here, but because there's not much a protest here can do about there. There is, sadly, only so much we can do to have our viewpoints recognized there. I was initially going to say "the free world," but that somehow sounded a bit elitist to me; perhaps it would have been a better choice of words. Anyway, the point was that in those countries where we do have freedom of speech (as opposed to Iran and so forth).
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Post by JayTee on May 23, 2010 22:14:28 GMT -5
The reason it is considered a day is because it is parodizing the belief that you may not draw what you believe in, and if you live in America, you have the freedom to do so as you wish.
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Post by low on May 24, 2010 7:37:02 GMT -5
Over a billion people believe Muhammed should not be drawn, and just as we have the right to free speech, Muslims have the right to free belief/thought. By "exercising our right to free speech", we are indirectly going against their (freedom to) belief. And I don't think that is right at all. (I realise what I just said may not have made much sense) Should we forget about talking about evolution publicly because of all the people who believe that the Earth and all its species were created 6000 years ago?
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Post by DubiousKing on May 24, 2010 7:58:35 GMT -5
Why should you need to draw him, it doesn't concern you in any way, your life wont be effected by it. Exactly what I was about to say. The whole point of Draw Muhammad Day seems to be to defend our right to draw Muhammad if we want to, which I will agree is a right we have. But I just want to ask, when would you ever have to draw Muhammad? I also have the right to walk around wearing an inverted crucifix (considered offensive by some Christians), but why would I ever need to do that? How many of you would find it offensive if I walked around with an inverted crucifix on my shirt to protest the fact that some Christians find it extremely offensive? Someone posted a quote by Voltaire, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Even if I don't agree with what you are doing, I will defend your right to do it to the best of my ability. That does not mean I will defend that you ARE doing it, just that I acknowledge you are allowed to and I won't stop you (maybe discourage, but not stop). Just because we have a right does not mean that we must exercise it.
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kshults
Meteor
Teach me what you can
Posts: 73
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Post by kshults on May 24, 2010 8:16:28 GMT -5
when would you ever have to draw Muhammad? this isn't the issue here! The issue is people have been killed for drawing muhammed, it's not us drawing it because we believe that we might need to, it's us drawing it because we believe in our freedoms, and, freedoms that others have had taken away from them in a very final way. This isn't a protest of whether or not we'll need to draw Muhammed, it's a protest on the actions taken against people who have drawn him, and who have been persecuted as a result
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Post by zAkAtAk on May 24, 2010 8:34:21 GMT -5
This thread has turned out to be a major disappointment. I am highly irritated right now by the opinions in this thread.
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Linus
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Post by Linus on May 24, 2010 8:36:23 GMT -5
this isn't the issue here! The issue is people have been killed for drawing muhammed, it's not us drawing it because we believe that we might need to, it's us drawing it because we believe in our freedoms, and, freedoms that others have had taken away from them in a very final way. This isn't a protest of whether or not we'll need to draw Muhammed, it's a protest on the actions taken against people who have drawn him, and who have been persecuted as a result Freedom of speech, yeah. Sure. But it's not right to draw something for the sake of provoking =P Which drawing Muhammed is. You know fundamentalist muslims are gonna be pissed, so why do it? By doing it, your methods of bringing forward opinion is as bad as theirs. It's like kindergarten all over again; "He hit me first, so Imma hit him back!". I think that saying "I'm entitled to my free speech" is only eligble if the drawing was actually not made to provoke, but for an artistic purpose. I can defend such a thing. But Draw Muhammed Day is just based on loose grounds and is not meant for anything else than drawing Muhammed for the sake of drawing Muhammed. And in the meantime, you upset and disrespect some people. It's only polarizing the whole problem even more, and no one wins. I don't doubt that your intentions are good, with protecting free speech and all, but this does not solve the problem. It makes it worse. Now they are only gonna be EVEN MORE pissed on the western world. Way to go <.<
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Post by DubiousKing on May 24, 2010 9:25:53 GMT -5
this isn't the issue here! The issue is people have been killed for drawing muhammed, it's not us drawing it because we believe that we might need to, it's us drawing it because we believe in our freedoms, and, freedoms that others have had taken away from them in a very final way. This isn't a protest of whether or not we'll need to draw Muhammed, it's a protest on the actions taken against people who have drawn him, and who have been persecuted as a result It's a flawed protest, if you ask me. All I can see coming of this is provoking extremist Muslim groups and, in their eyes, substantiating their beliefs about the western world: that it is a sinful society that should be eradicated in the name of Allah. It will only cause more of what it's aiming to prevent, IMO. I'm all for protesting the actions of these extremist groups, I just think this is the wrong way to go about doing it.
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