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Post by stephen5000 on Apr 15, 2010 16:25:05 GMT -5
^^I don't agree with that. I think both me and Imaginary philosphy (and others) are neutral about this. Both sides are doing wrong and their actions aren't correct in any way. Oh, I wasn't referring to this board, but to what I see in the media in general. Obviously the situation isn't black and white.
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Post by andrea1994barney on Apr 15, 2010 17:02:51 GMT -5
Ofcourse it is! Take easter as an example! Just a few weeks ago, palestine began to bomb the gaza strip, on FREAKING EASTER!! So israel goes ahead and sends 22 missles to palestine, not even half of what they sent! What happens? The next day Palestine goes crying about how israel is bombing them! Come on man! If you wanna play, then you gotta take the hits Well considering Muslims and Jews don't celebrate Easter, that really doesn't matter.
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Post by andrea1994barney on Apr 15, 2010 17:04:15 GMT -5
I'm going with it is better not to take sides on this issue because then it just gets people mad, it was the Jew's land hundreds of years ago then Palestine took it the the Jews took it back. It is hard to pick sides, I think they need to compromise.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2010 2:56:31 GMT -5
Jews do celebrate Pesach, which is I think the same date as Easter
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RabbitWho
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Post by RabbitWho on Apr 16, 2010 7:20:43 GMT -5
I hate thinking about it because I believe a lot of people use the atrocities being committed by the Israeli government as an excuse for antisemitism. When the whole Lebanon thing was going on I was home in Cork for the summer and Russels Music shop had a sign in their window saying "The jews have blood on their hands again." I didn't know whether to laugh or cry or what. There were also lots of signs all over the city (as far as I know mostly published by the "Socialist Youth" lunatics (I know some Americans might think they are sympathetic with socialism but socialism has nothing to do with Health Care, health care is a basic human right) with black and white pictures of the Israeli flag with big Xs across them. If you know the flag that's terrifying because what you got was an X over the star of David. At the moment Israel is basically orchestrating a genocide. here's the most recent example: www.euronews.net/2010/04/13/euromed-water-strategy-aborted-over-israeli-objections/ But this is nothing to do with religion or ethnicity, this is a political thing and a revenge/rage/ fear / irrational sense of superiority thing, just like all similar invasions wars and genocides. I know Hamas are not innocent, they use violent retaliation and turn the world against their nation, but it's against human nature to sit down and smile when someone half a mile from your house where you have no running water is swimming in a swimming pool on land which was once farmed by your grandfather. (dramatic example) www.newstatesman.com/society/2008/07/water-israel-area-villagesIt think that both sides are wrong to resort to violence, I can see how hamas feel they don't have a choice. Israel has one of the best armies in the world and it all reminds me of a bare foot squashing a wasp. I saw it written on the Berlin wall "When will we be writing on the wall between Israel and Palestine?" and i hope it will happen some day.
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The Doctor
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Post by The Doctor on Apr 17, 2010 6:41:23 GMT -5
First things first! You guys, not as in jews or palestinians, but as in all in this topic, either you live way back in the past, or way into the future, I dont know which, but I can tell you this, Palestine is not a country, it ceased beeing a country in 1948, and was renamed Israel, learn2history.
Second, Palestinians are not bombing anyone, and that is the main part of the conflict, there are SOME palestinians who bomb/launch rockets, fair enough. But not all, we cannot punish a people for what some do, history repeats itself over and over and over, untill people can recognize that a genetic traits or believes dont make a group of people unanimous! Sure Hamas sucks balls, no doubt, but righwing-nutjobs in the current Israeli goverment is no better, they have the same agenda, killing the other. So why would anyone be better than the other, the thing is, I bet you one million british pounds that ahmed 10yo, have done neither any harm, but he is the one who will feel the consequence.
I know, Israel claims first rights, cause they have a book that says god gave them that land, well so do the palestinians, thing is, the Quran is newer, hence god changed his mind, this never occured to the Israelis, well actually in the beginning it probably had nothing to do with either, the Europeans wanted a country in the Mideast in a leach, so they made one, the world was not as openminded as it is now. Its not the first wartorn part of the world greedy Europeans have caused, just have a look at Africa.
But still, what happened in Palestine 60 years ago, doesnt really matter rightnow, for now, bygones must be bygones, or else there will never be peace, most people in both Israel and Gaza/Westbank know this. Right now, Israel is the ones at fault. They are a country, and they are attacking civilians, the ones bombing Israel are terrorists, hence it is not possible to blame it on palestinians...
"I never would" /// The Doctor regarding Revenge.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2010 12:45:51 GMT -5
I agree that you can't live in the past, but you can't ignore history either, you have to learn from it.
As for this:
While the Islam believes that "Jahweh" and "Allah" are the same god, Jews don't. So it wouldn't be logical for them to think that way.
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The Doctor
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Post by The Doctor on Apr 18, 2010 15:44:19 GMT -5
Hehe, yeah, the thing about theists, are that they hardly ever possess the capacity of logical thought! No but seriously, ofcourse jews dont believe in what muslims do, my remark was only a joke on one of the fundamental flaws of organized religion! Sorry to mislead you by not beeing witty enough Of course we cannot forget history, history is what thaught us that waging war over beliefs is stupid, Crusades, WW2, Vietnam, Africa, ME and so on...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2010 17:37:08 GMT -5
Sorry to mislead you by not beeing witty enough lol
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FranticProdigy
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Post by FranticProdigy on Apr 20, 2010 19:11:54 GMT -5
Israeli Palestinian conflict muffins!
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Philosoraptor
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dangling prepositions is something up with which I shall not put
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Post by Philosoraptor on Apr 24, 2010 21:06:47 GMT -5
I feel like maybe we ought to just let them blow each other up, you know?
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TheIslander
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From a Land Surrounded by Sea.
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Post by TheIslander on Apr 24, 2010 22:30:24 GMT -5
To those saying Palestinians are not bombing anyone - who are hizbollah? and what are THEY doing then?
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Post by krzych32 on Apr 25, 2010 0:09:09 GMT -5
Palestinians have every right to defend themselves. This conflict will not stop as long as the Jews will continue to Colonize Palestinian lands. Sure, Palestinians are not perfect, but what can they do facing a much stronger enemy? There is also one more part to this story, and that is the poverty that the Palestinians have to live in, if the Israelis were any smarter, they would support economic growth in Palestinian communities, this techniques was used before to stop violence, lets take England and Irland for example.
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Post by IMAGINARYphilosophy on Apr 25, 2010 8:00:03 GMT -5
To those saying Palestinians are not bombing anyone - who are hizbollah? and what are THEY doing then? Hezbollah is a Lebanese terrorist organization.
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The Doctor
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Post by The Doctor on Apr 26, 2010 16:52:16 GMT -5
To those saying Palestinians are not bombing anyone - who are hizbollah? and what are THEY doing then? Hezbollah is a Lebanese terrorist organization. Oh Snap...
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Post by bombmaniac on Apr 28, 2010 1:23:48 GMT -5
i think israel isnt as nice as alot of people think/believe...I dont want to do a history review now, but whenever Israel is doing something wrong like bombing / attacking innocent people, its always accepted, because of the holocaust and everthing during the middle age.....however, i believe that has to stop!We must learn from history, and in my opinion Israel is often using their history to justify their actions... you my good man are a weenie. israel was given the land by the brits. the egyptians, jordanians, and syrians got pissed and mobilized their troops. israel launched a preemptive strike and in doing so gained control of new territory. israel gave back the gaza strip. now how's this for perspective...christopher colombus comes to america, in search of a spice trade. he stumbles upon a race of people until then completely isolated from teh rest of the world. he reports back. spain sends in teh army and wipes them out. more people come, from more countries. eventually the pilgrims reach america. fast forward a bit. the colonies are created. the idea of manifest destiny is implanted into the minds of every citizen. revolution. peace. independance. expansion. indians are killed. driven from their homes. forced west. confined to reservations. subjugated. raped. killed. treated like beasts. america flourishes. westward expansion continues. more "savages" are killed. we reach teh west coast. manifest destiny is achieved. never has america given up land. israel has. the war against the indians was not a preemptive war, the 6 day war was. the indians were not the aggressors. neither were the israelis. israel has been the land of the jews, since biblical times, not the arab's. there have always been jews in israel. israel has sat down for peace talks...fatah has sent suicide bombers. hezballah trains children to be suicide bombers. israel does not. the palestinians are naturally destructive, the israelis are not. evidence of that: when the israelis left gaza, they left behind fully built and fully functional greenhouses. the residents there had been making a fortune exporting crops to other countries all grown in those greenhouses. in one week. torn down. all of them. now i ask you, who is wrong? when israel bombs something, they drop fliers warning the citizens to GET OUT! the palestinians do not. (war in lebanon) israel does not send suicide bombers to packed civillian centers to kill women and children. the palestinians do. israel does not randomly shoot families sitting on their patios enjoying a beautiful day. the palestinians do. when israel bombs the palestinians in retaliation, the UN condemns it. when the palestinians bomb, they are getting back at the "zionist opressors". israel is never been given a pass. israeli members of governments are sought after for war crimes charges. palestinians are given peace prizes. israel has not taken any new land since the 6 day war. to teh contrary. they have given back. somebody posted above that it was al quaeda that was strapping bombs to themselves and their children, not the palestinians. wrong. it is hezballah, teh official elected leaders of the palestinians. hezballah is nothing more than a terrorist organization. someone ELSE posted that israel is barely democratic, and is led by an ultra religious body. wrong. the majority of israel is secular, and a large portion are anti religious. true there are religious peopl ein the knesset, but they are by far not the majority. not even close. there has never been a religious prime minister. ever. so dont bring religious fundamentalism into this. some other genius posted about israel being genocidal. i lol'd far from it my friend. israel allows arab citizens. israel allows arab knesset ministers and city government leaders. on teh contrary, the palestinians do not allow israelis to so much as set FOOT in their land. they summarily shoot them. no questions asked. clear enough for all of you?
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TheIslander
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From a Land Surrounded by Sea.
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Post by TheIslander on Apr 28, 2010 3:56:44 GMT -5
To those saying Palestinians are not bombing anyone - who are hizbollah? and what are THEY doing then? Hezbollah is a Lebanese terrorist organization. It was a rhetorical question, most people know who they are. Even the ones speaking against israel. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8647909.stmI wonder what they plan to do with the missiles.
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The Doctor
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Post by The Doctor on Apr 28, 2010 4:23:47 GMT -5
So, why do you bring up a lebanese terrorist organisation into the discussion about Israel and Palestine? bombmaniac Arabs are second class citizens in Israel, sure they do have many rights, but they are still excluded from some. Anyhow, just because USA was founded by violence and the extermination of other people, doesnt make it right... Israel doesnt have any rights to exist. Dont get me wrong, its there, and theres nothing we can, or even should, do about that but they should just release the Palestinian landslips and get the fuck along! Sure 20 years ago they had to protect themself, but the lebanese war 2006 was unprovoced. There is no reason for them to start wars anymore, and btw, preemtive war/Strikes, thats just bullshit, If you occupy land from a "preemptive strike" for years, well, then its just a "Strike"...
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Post by bombmaniac on Apr 28, 2010 4:44:22 GMT -5
tsk, tsk, how sad, it was only in 2006 and already you forgot...it was quite provoked. Hezbollah was launching rockets onto Israel from Lebanon...i would call that a provocation. as for Israel having a right to exist, Israel was granted independence from the British in 1948. it was turned over to a Jewish parliamentary government. by your logic, India has no right to exist, America has no right to exist, in fact most countries have no right to exist. there was a revolution. Israel won. Britain turned control of the land over to the Israelis. accept it. as for the occupied territories of the 6 day war, it was very clear to the entire world that Syria Egypt and Lebanon were mobilizing, that is indisputable, and the reason Israel occupied those territories then was to prevent them from becoming staging points for attacks from the Syrians Egyptians and Lebanese. the same reason stands 20 years later. all 3 with the exception possibly of Egypt are openly hostile towards Israel. as for appeasement, well, Neville chamberlain tried it and look where it got him. Israel gave back Gaza, and it has become a hotbed of terrorism, and a launching point for Hezbollah rockets. no, throwing land at the Palestinians is not the solution. now you can make the case that they still didnt get what they want and therefore they are still fighting from gaza for the rest of it, however if you were in that position, once you got some, once you got your greatest and most dangerous enemy, an enemy that is vastly more powerful than you to turn over land to you, and you still wanted more, don't you think you would show a little good faith, adhere to a ceasefire and diplomatically ask for more? well, thats what any sane person should and would do, however what did the palestinians do? hmm...lets see...they set up rocket launchers...great move on their part no? clearly they are more interested in attacking israel than they are in the land.
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Post by IMAGINARYphilosophy on Apr 28, 2010 6:01:35 GMT -5
i think israel isnt as nice as alot of people think/believe...I dont want to do a history review now, but whenever Israel is doing something wrong like bombing / attacking innocent people, its always accepted, because of the holocaust and everthing during the middle age.....however, i believe that has to stop!We must learn from history, and in my opinion Israel is often using their history to justify their actions... you my good man are a weenie. I love when a post starts with needless name-calling. It lets me know the argument about to be made is likely so flimsy that the poster must resort to personal attacks. I'd just like to point out that the Six-Day War occurred in 1967. There's more than 40 years of history after that to consider. I think you just made Ipisg's point. Hezbollah is a Lebanese terrorist organization, not Palestinian. So your argument is: In a period of transition when the Palestinian government had not yet established a full police force, looters broke into green houses and stole equipment. Ergo, all Palestinians are "naturally destructive" and Israel is justified in oppressing them. I remain unconvinced. Not true. See my first post for the description of the Gaza War that killed hundreds of Palestinian civilians in unannounced air attacks. The PLO was involved in the Lebanese Civil War from 1975 to 1982. I'm not sure what that has to do with the rest of your post, though. Also, please post citation for your claim about "shooting families on their patios." The UN condemns the Israelis targeting hospitals, schools, police buildings, and other locations where the civilian casualty rate is needlessly high. Again, see my first post on the Gaza War. I'm sure that's how some people spin it, but I find acts of violence on both sides to be repugnant. If you are referring to Yasser Arafat receiving the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994, keep in mind he shared that award with Israel's Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Foreign Minister Shimon Peres for their joint work on the Oslo Accords. Rabin, by the way, was assassinated by an Israeli in 1995 for signing those very Accords. Yes, they gave back land. Not airspace or border control or a functional shoreline... but the land, they gave a little of it back. I find it hard to take seriously an argument from a person who doesn't even know the difference between Hezbollah and Hamas. That said, I do admit I was wrong about the suicide bomb claim I made earlier and have found a few news articles that report on such occurrences. Though I must ask for citation for your claim that Palestinians were "strapping bombs to... their children." That was also me. I'll point you to hiddush.org, a Jewish organization devoted to ending the Orthodoxy's control over the Israeli government. Citation for the shoot on sight claim please. Not really, no.
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