RabbitWho
Star
Rebecca - How 'bout we all put or real names somewhere in our signatures or titles? [SKB:]
Posts: 808
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Post by RabbitWho on May 3, 2010 5:36:14 GMT -5
That's why it's so important to do your own research and make up your own mind. PDBAZ!
Anyone who follows Chomsky blindly is doing just as much a disservice to the world as anyone who follows anyone else blindly.
Most of his views are fair opinions and who's to say he's not right.. but it really puzzles me that he would be so taken in by 9/11 conspiracy theories... Anyway he has the right and he is right to express his views, just as you are.
It's also extremely important that as a respected Jewish intellectual he speaks out against what Israel are doing/have done, because a lot of people are afraid to and are all too willing to either avoid the subject entirely or pretend like the Palestinians are the sole aggressors and pure evil. There is a lot of evil there, but neither group can claim ownership of it.
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Post by IMAGINARYphilosophy on May 3, 2010 14:17:58 GMT -5
here's the difference: if i get something wrong here, maybe i influence 2000 people, at MOST. if he gets something wrong he has a much wider audience a more receptive audience to influence, and he is wrong so many times Derived rule: If you have a large audience, never take a stand on anything. You may be wrong.
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Post by ligerman30 on May 3, 2010 20:34:25 GMT -5
I don't know why they can't just get along.
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Post by fcktht on May 3, 2010 20:40:59 GMT -5
nah...if you have a large audience make sure your stand isnt baseless
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Post by anerisgreat on May 9, 2010 10:21:09 GMT -5
Some of this stuff sickens me.
First of all, I am Israeli. Just saying. I will try and make this post as non-biased as I can.
That being said, one thing that near NONE of you acknowledge, surprisingly, is that these are extremists from both sides. From the Palestinian side are the dictators, the terrorist, the radical Muslims, which comprise a surprisingly small amount of the Palestinian people. The Palestinians themselves are very nice, and there is a fair amount of healthy cooperation between the two parties, however, terrorist organizations have a knack for ruining any progress made. Sick, primitive people. Then, there are the radical Jews, which are, if I may say, equally as horrid. As a Jew (a nonbeliever, but still part of the Jewish culture) it SICKENS me that these people have such a primitive way of life. Honestly, extremist Jews, no one likes them. They are primitive, parasitic monsters. But we must remember, these people comprise a very small amount of the general public!
Unfortunately, both groups of extremists are the ones that do the most damage. Terrorist organizations blow up coffee shops filled with innocent Jews and right wing maniacs destroy any progress made to find a solution to these horrid problems. Both sides are at fault, arguably equally.
We must also take the Israeli government into though here. They are a horrid bunch, the current Israeli government is quite corrupt and dominated by religious and right-wing nut jobs. The biggest problem is that they really don't do anything. They sit there, and that's about it. They are getting pretty good at it too. Now, while the CURRENT government sucks, that's not to say that a new-better government will rise at one point, and I think in due time, this will happen.
Of course, some of the decisions deemed as "inhumane" by many of you are INCREDIBLY useful safety measures. They seem horrible, and I agree about that, but if they weren't implemented many innocent people, probably from both sides, would die. It's not a solution, but it's a temporary fix that does more good than bad. It's not perfect though, and that's very unfortunate.
People who argue 'who the land belongs to' are debating a pointless topic. Israel won it fair and square in wars (of course this opinion is quite biased, because I am, after all, Israeli). But even IF we do NOT deserve the land, it doesn't matter. It doesn't HELP if we argue "who does this belong to", because we must decide "well we're both living here apparently, what now?". And I really hate those people who justify their opinions on who the land belongs to based on the bible. THESE ARE MODERN TIMES. We're given modern facts, make due with them.
Oh, and PLEASE don't say "Let 'em blow each other up", because that's just sickening. It's not two militant organizations eradicating each other. It's two militant organizations blowing up innocent people that the other organization is "representing". It's me being blown up, and I don't think I deserve to die because two annoying parties of people are justifying the ownership of land based on an old tale of Abraham. The only way out of this is a peaceful solution, and I don't know how that's going to happen, but I believe that somehow it will. And maybe in the near future!
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bye bye moon
Moon
The way i look at the world, would make you go blind
Posts: 192
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Post by bye bye moon on May 14, 2010 19:11:55 GMT -5
MY TOPIC RULES!
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The Doctor
Moon
I wear my sunglasses at night
Posts: 147
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Post by The Doctor on May 31, 2010 18:46:02 GMT -5
First things first!
1: I agree with anerisgreat, There are extremists on both sides
B, no wait, 2: Israel seized ships to Gaza by force, in international water, then prosecute them for beeing in Israel illegaly, I know that their aim was to go to Israel illegaly. So Israel is basically right, but where is the harm in following International law regarding international waters? It is not as though they had anything to really lose by waiting, or did they?
3 or C: I basically wrote about this stuff here because I have a overwhelming fear of starting new threads.
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Post by KipEnyan on Jun 3, 2010 15:48:53 GMT -5
Aner nailed most of the major points.
As to the recent raid on the aid ship en route to Gaza, Israel was technically in the wrong on this one.
The key is the international waters. Any unauthorized raid on a ship in international waters is either an act of war or piracy. The Israelis attempted to board and search the ship, and the Turks started beating them with metal poles and throwing them overboard. After getting good and sick of this, the Israelis opened fire. Still, legally the Israelis had no right to board the ship where they did, if at all.
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Post by evethor on Jun 3, 2010 20:00:23 GMT -5
Aner nailed most of the major points. As to the recent raid on the aid ship en route to Gaza, Israel was technically in the wrong on this one. The key is the international waters. Any unauthorized raid on a ship in international waters is either an act of war or piracy. The Israelis attempted to board and search the ship, and the Turks started beating them with metal poles and throwing them overboard. After getting good and sick of this, the Israelis opened fire. Still, legally the Israelis had no right to board the ship where they did, if at all. Alright. On these boats there were not only Turks. There were Norwegians, Swedes (among them the writer Henning Mankel) Brits and others. Now other Norwegians and Swedes say that they tried to throw the Israelis overboard since they had no right to subdue them in international waters. This the Israeli soldiers did not like (understandably) so they opened fire on the non European looking volunteers. People died and the actions taken by the Israeli government is condemned by many a organization. Some of the Norwegian parties advocate a blockade of all Israeli gods until they open the blockade and allow assistance to freely enter and leave Palestine. Others say this is not a good idea since economic regression is not a tool to gain peace with. But is that not excatly what the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinians? I bow my head for the views from Aner. Your opinions are greatly valued by myself.
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Post by KipEnyan on Jun 3, 2010 20:13:44 GMT -5
Israel wants Palestine to acknowledge their right to exist, which is really what this is all about. From an ideological standpoint, I agree with the Israelis here. But as far as courses of action, I agree with nobody.
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Post by IMAGINARYphilosophy on Jun 4, 2010 6:30:04 GMT -5
Alright. On these boats there were not only Turks. There were Norwegians, Swedes (among them the writer Henning Mankel) Brits and others. Some of those others being American citizens, including a US Ambassador who served under the Regan administration. The ongoing investigation into Israel's illegal attack on the flotilla has revealed that one of the people killed by Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) was a Turkish-American. He was shot once in the chest and four times in the head at close range, causing speculation that he was not gunned down amid the scuffle, but deliberately executed by the IDF. However, because Israel continues to illegally hold some the people it kidnapped off those boats and refuses to release full and unedited video footage of the attack, the truth remains unclear.
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Post by KipEnyan on Jun 5, 2010 22:05:43 GMT -5
There's a fair amount of footage of the attack, but yes, it is mostly of people from the flotilla beating and throwing off IDF troops. Israel seems to be making more of a statement out of them now, as they want to make sure everybody knows that you can't get to Gaza without going through them first.
The popular misconception is that the Israelis are trying to completely block aid from Gaza, which is false. The IDF has been tasked with searching any ships that refuse to dock at Israeli ports on their way to Gaza, to make sure that they are not carrying any military equipment or potential explosive materials.
In the case of this aid ship, they refused to be searched, and the IDF took this as reasonable suspicion to board armed, where they were attacked and then opened fire.
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Post by bombmaniac on Jun 6, 2010 0:53:40 GMT -5
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Post by IMAGINARYphilosophy on Jun 6, 2010 1:18:13 GMT -5
There's a fair amount of footage of the attack, but yes, it is mostly of people from the flotilla beating and throwing off IDF troops. Israel seems to be making more of a statement out of them now, as they want to make sure everybody knows that you can't get to Gaza without going through them first. And to make this statement, they killed nine people who were defending themselves from an illegal boarding in international waters. The flotilla was in international waters. By international law, the Israelis had no legal right to fire on, stop or board those ships. If they had been in Israeli waters, it would be different. You can argue that Israel has the right to defend itself until you are blue in the face, but they had no right to invade those ships. In international waters, those ships flying the Turkish flag were sovereign territory of Turkey, and the Israelis committed acts of aggression against the Turkish people by firing on them and boarding without permission. And according to people who were on the flotilla, the IDF fired first. First tear gas and flash-bang grenades, then rubber bullets, then live fire. Whether the live fire started before or after the boarding is a matter of question, but the Israelis fired first.
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Post by IMAGINARYphilosophy on Jun 6, 2010 1:41:12 GMT -5
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Post by krzych32 on Jun 6, 2010 12:40:38 GMT -5
Israeli fired first because they were the only one's with guns.
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Post by KipEnyan on Jun 6, 2010 13:43:46 GMT -5
Yeah, @imaginaryphilosophy, clearly you've overlooked my previous posts saying that regardless of the circumstances, Israel boarded a sovereign ship in international waters, which is illegal, and that the people on the aid ship had a right to defend themselves.
And obviously the IDF "fired first", like krzych32 said, they were the only ones with guns. As to who threw the first stone (both literally and metaphorically in this case), it's pretty clear that it was the people on the aid ship once they found out they were being boarded whether they liked it or not.
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Post by IMAGINARYphilosophy on Jun 7, 2010 2:56:56 GMT -5
Yeah, @imaginaryphilosophy, clearly you've overlooked my previous posts saying that regardless of the circumstances, Israel boarded a sovereign ship in international waters, which is illegal, and that the people on the aid ship had a right to defend themselves. And obviously the IDF "fired first", like krzych32 said, they were the only ones with guns. As to who threw the first stone (both literally and metaphorically in this case), it's pretty clear that it was the people on the aid ship once they found out they were being boarded whether they liked it or not. So which is it? Israel was in the wrong because they boarded the ships illegally in international waters, but they had a right to do it to defend themselves against people smuggling weapons to Gaza, but the people on the boats had a right to defend themselves against illegal boarding, but the Israelis had a right to shoot those people because they were being hit with clubs. You can't have it both ways. Either Israel had a right to board the ships or they didn't. Either the Israelis were attacking the people on the boats, or the people on the boats were attacking the Israelis.
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TheIslander
Planet
From a Land Surrounded by Sea.
Posts: 403
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Post by TheIslander on Jun 7, 2010 4:01:08 GMT -5
Yeah, @imaginaryphilosophy, clearly you've overlooked my previous posts saying that regardless of the circumstances, Israel boarded a sovereign ship in international waters, which is illegal, and that the people on the aid ship had a right to defend themselves. And obviously the IDF "fired first", like krzych32 said, they were the only ones with guns. As to who threw the first stone (both literally and metaphorically in this case), it's pretty clear that it was the people on the aid ship once they found out they were being boarded whether they liked it or not. So which is it? Israel was in the wrong because they boarded the ships illegally in international waters, but they had a right to do it to defend themselves against people smuggling weapons to Gaza, but the people on the boats had a right to defend themselves against illegal boarding, but the Israelis had a right to shoot those people because they were being hit with clubs. You can't have it both ways. Either Israel had a right to board the ships or they didn't. Either the Israelis were attacking the people on the boats, or the people on the boats were attacking the Israelis. The ship was smuggling illegal substances into Gaza, the ship was going to be searched whether they liked it or not. The people were shot because they were acting violently. The people on the aid ship are wrong for acting violently, whereas since Israel killed people - people are blaming Israel. The fact that we're talking about Israel and Palestine does not help. Not my war, not my discussion.
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Post by krzych32 on Jun 7, 2010 10:36:06 GMT -5
So which is it? Israel was in the wrong because they boarded the ships illegally in international waters, but they had a right to do it to defend themselves against people smuggling weapons to Gaza, but the people on the boats had a right to defend themselves against illegal boarding, but the Israelis had a right to shoot those people because they were being hit with clubs. You can't have it both ways. Either Israel had a right to board the ships or they didn't. Either the Israelis were attacking the people on the boats, or the people on the boats were attacking the Israelis. The ship was smuggling illegal substances into Gaza, the ship was going to be searched whether they liked it or not. The people were shot because they were acting violently. The people on the aid ship are wrong for acting violently, whereas since Israel killed people - people are blaming Israel. The fact that we're talking about Israel and Palestine does not help. Not my war, not my discussion. Illegal substances? Did you see the pictures Israel released claiming that there were weapons> Weapons like.....slingshots, and rods, and around 15 knifes (when your on a ship you may need a knife). And of course all dangerous cement that Israelis made illegal in gaza. People on that ships had every right to defend themselves agains an act of piracy. Israely state is pure evil, they are holding hostage 1.5M people. Its just a matter of time before someone will do something about it.
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