|
Post by krzych32 on May 26, 2010 13:40:08 GMT -5
So I found this on the internet:
Tell me, what do you think about it? I don't want to create another threat to argue where it all came from, but rather should creationism find its way into our schools, and is it even a valid argument?
This video also shows how a few people that have on idea what they are talking about and have no valid arguments make all of the christians look straight up stupid. I mean, was this like a special ed's class or something? One Girl said, "Its just not passible", wtf, that's not an argument. And listen what that boy at the very end said, black people evolving from white people?! But if you have a teacher like they do I guess this is what you get.
|
|
Nakor
Star
Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
|
Post by Nakor on May 26, 2010 13:47:07 GMT -5
We had a debate about this quite a while ago. Frankly:
1) Evolution is as 100% proven true as facts get. Creationism has no evidence whatsoever. 2) Evolution is science. Creationism is religious myth.
I love the line where he says he doesn't think a supernatural being would have to use a natural process... considering that we know for a fact that the process happened, isn't that then an argument against a creator?
This should not even be an argument. Maybe this will emphasise the point:
|
|
|
Post by Joey on May 26, 2010 15:06:16 GMT -5
Okay, but please dont let those type of people give you what you think of creationsists. I wouldnt know what to call myself. I believe that God created man, but not like man today. I don't think we evolved from apes, but ape-like humans. So I am split half in half.
|
|
|
Post by jmejia1187 on May 26, 2010 15:13:49 GMT -5
Evolution is a theory which leads to hypothesis which can be tested. Evolution itself is based on facts.
Creationism is based on an idea with no factual backing and the hypotheses it generates can be falsified. If creationism is true then all animals should have very different DNA, because they were all made independently by the hand of god. However Bonobos are our closest cousins, next to the chimpanzees. If creationism was true we wouldn't be able to measure these DNA relationships. So creationism is false. You can do this with just about any hypothesis brought out by creationism.
A theory needs to lead to testable hypotheses. BELIEVE ME I AM A BIOLOGIST. Assuming creationism is a theory, which it is not, it can easily be proven wrong by proving any of the hypotheses generated by creationism wrong.
Here is another one: Creationism postulates that animals are all independent and no animals came from preexisting animals. Ergo god created them all.
Then why are there no fossils of humans alongside fossils of dinosaurs. Or fossils of frogs in the permian? Or tigers in the Triassic? Because these animals haven't evolved yet!!!!
Creationism failed twice in two thought experiments. It shouldn't be taught in school science classes because it is not science. It is nonsense perpetrated by people who believe their god is infallible.
But I might ask you this. If creationism is true, why does god go through such great lengths to make it seem as if it isn't?
|
|
|
Post by RandiKthxxx on May 26, 2010 15:15:59 GMT -5
1) Evolution is as 100% proven true as facts get. Can I have links or something to these facts? Not doubting it but I really want to read about it for myself.
|
|
|
Post by SnallyGaster on May 26, 2010 15:16:28 GMT -5
I learned about this evolution jazz 2 years ago. made perfect sense. I dunno why everyone makes a big fuss. Just because evolution is fact doesn't mean a god can't exact. just not one like that in the bible
|
|
|
Post by jeradjones on May 26, 2010 15:19:27 GMT -5
I live at a school just like that.
I personally am an evolutionist, but I can honestly say that there's no way to prove I'm correct. I can also honestly say there is no way to prove the Christian religion is correct.
The problem with the school I go to is they don't seem to understand that. They constantly try to convert me to Christianity and tell me "I'm going to Hell for not believing." This really sets me off. It also makes me mad when I see and Evolutionist making fun of creationism. They're both just theories, and just because you believe in one doesn't mean you have to make fun of the other one. A lot of people really need to learn the definition of "tolerance."
|
|
|
Post by Joey on May 26, 2010 15:20:46 GMT -5
But I might ask you this. If creationism is true, why does god go through such great lengths to make it seem as if it isn't? Who says it seems as if it isnt? Where is the scientific proof that shows us that? Just because something evolved dosent mean God made it that way. Show me the proof that my God didn't make the process of evolution? I can't prove you wrong, but you sure as hell can't prove me wrong. You know why? Because we haven't discovered what started evolution. And until shown otherwise, Im gonna believe God did. BTW I agree that something based of off a religion(Creationism) shouldnt be taugt in Public School classrooms.
|
|
|
Post by jmejia1187 on May 26, 2010 15:21:15 GMT -5
1) Evolution is as 100% proven true as facts get. Can I have links or something to these facts? Not doubting it but I really want to read about it for myself. www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-evolutiontheory.htmAs a biologist I can say that evolution is a fact. Nothing in biology makes sense except in the face of evolution. But if your looking for a good summary purchase the greatest show on earth by richard dawkins. In it he puts great evidence forth as to why evolution is a fact. INCLUDING how evolution makes things which sometimes cannot be inmade. If we were made by god, we would not have these huge engineering problems. For example, because we are bipedal we suffer from back problems! I think the "mistakes" in evolution prove we were not made by an infallible god.
|
|
|
Post by Joey on May 26, 2010 15:22:26 GMT -5
I learned about this evolution jazz 2 years ago. made perfect sense. I dunno why everyone makes a big fuss. Just because evolution is fact doesn't mean a god can't exact. just not one like that in the bible False. We are taught as Christians that the story of creation shouldn't be taken literally. It was taken from the best knowledge, because no one was recording it down. It is just to show that God created all(not neccesarily man right away) and that somehow, sometime we got original sin.
|
|
|
Post by Joey on May 26, 2010 15:24:16 GMT -5
Can I have links or something to these facts? Not doubting it but I really want to read about it for myself. www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-evolutiontheory.htmAs a biologist I can say that evolution is a fact. Nothing in biology makes sense except in the face of evolution. But if your looking for a good summary purchase the greatest show on earth by richard dawkins. In it he puts great evidence forth as to why evolution is a fact. INCLUDING how evolution makes things which sometimes cannot be inmade. If we were made by god, we would not have these huge engineering problems. For example, because we are bipedal we suffer from back problems! I think the "mistakes" in evolution prove we were not made by an infallible god. Couldnt God have created a perfect human-type creature (which eventually became man) that, through evolution, corrupted us a little?
|
|
|
Post by RandiKthxxx on May 26, 2010 15:24:25 GMT -5
Can I have links or something to these facts? Not doubting it but I really want to read about it for myself. www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-evolutiontheory.htmAs a biologist I can say that evolution is a fact. Nothing in biology makes sense except in the face of evolution. But if your looking for a good summary purchase the greatest show on earth by richard dawkins. In it he puts great evidence forth as to why evolution is a fact. INCLUDING how evolution makes things which sometimes cannot be inmade. If we were made by god, we would not have these huge engineering problems. For example, because we are bipedal we suffer from back problems! I think the "mistakes" in evolution prove we were not made by an infallible god. Yeah I was looking for more of the evidence like how we know it's true, not if we know it's true.
|
|
|
Post by qooqǝɯɐƃ on May 26, 2010 15:24:49 GMT -5
There is no logical debate, just an emotional one.
Any child given the question
"Do you believe the 2000 year old belief that there is a being in the sky controlling our fate, watching, judging and punishing us? And that he created the earth ~6000 years ago. Or do you believe a theory that has developed over the past 150 years that says we've continuously evolved over billions of years to become what we are today? And the galaxies and everything were created ~13 billion years ago, our solar system was created ~4.5 billion years ago and we have no idea what happened before that."
with the realization that all knowledge is emergent and that the creationist's beliefs are ideas created 2000 years ago and haven't accounted for new discoveries, but this ~200 year-old theory has, would seriously come up with the understanding, unanimously, that creationism is an outdated belief, and we now have a new theory, the theory of evolution.
|
|
|
Post by Joey on May 26, 2010 15:27:53 GMT -5
There is no logical debate, just an emotional one. Any child given the question "Do you believe the 2000 year old belief that there is a being in the sky controlling our fate, watching, judging and punishing us? And that he created the earth ~6000 years ago. Or do you believe a theory that has developed over the past 150 years that says we've continuously evolved over billions of years to become what we are today? And the galaxies and everything were created ~13 billion years ago, our solar system was created ~4.5 billion years ago and we have no idea what happened before that." with the realization that all knowledge is emergent and that the creationist's beliefs are ideas created 2000 years ago and haven't accounted for new discoveries, but this ~200 year-old theory has, would seriously come up with the understanding, unanimously, that creationism is an outdated belief, and we now have a new theory, the theory of evolution. Why cant they collide? Maybe what happend before that could be God created it. I cant disprove that he didnt, but you cant disprove that he did.
|
|
Nakor
Star
Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
|
Post by Nakor on May 26, 2010 15:32:19 GMT -5
Well, to clarify a common slipping point, it wasn't a direct evolution from apes to humans, we both evolved from the same parent species.
But frankly, the truth is not a matter of whether one believes it or not. Humans evolved from Homo Heidelbergensis -- the common ancestor of humans and Neanderthals, for the record. Homo Heidelbergensis is one of several subbranches of Homo Erectus, which lived side-by-side with Homo Habilis -- at this point we're talking about 3.6 million years back. Skipping some generations, these have Homininae, then Hominidae roots, which speciated from the ancestors of the gibbon (15 million years ago).
Now, Hominoidea (and the old world monkeys Cercopithecoidea) are both branches off Catarrhini (25 million years ago). These are a branch from Haplorrhini (30 million years ago). These branched from the earliest primates (40 million years ago).
Primates, treeshrew and flying lemurs all evolved from Euarchonta (65-85 million years ago). Incidentally, if we go back to 100 million years ago, we now have a shared ancestor with mice.
From there the time frames gap wider. 220 million years ago the first mammals formed, and from this point we can draw lines to humans and every other mammal. 300 million years ago reptiles first formed, some of which would be the ancestors of the mammal.
I'll cut it off there, but know that beyond any doubt we are evolved along with every other species of life on this planet -- even plant life. Of course, over the millions and millions of years, some of the species that we technically share ancestry with (all of them) have become so far removed due to evolution that there is little similarity remaining between them, and yet that genetic similarity exists.
There is no doubt. Evolution is how we came to be. We and every other form of life on Earth started as the most basic single-celled organisms and evolved from there.
|
|
|
Post by jmejia1187 on May 26, 2010 15:36:25 GMT -5
Okay, new argument. Creationism should not be taught in school science classrooms because their arguments are antiscience! They are not based on facts.
To say the magic man in the sky put us here is a dumb argument in science classrooms when EVIDENCE points the other way.
How can I prove the evidence goes the other way? Homo habilis, Australopithecus, Homo erectus...
Should I go on?
How do we know evolution is true? Lets assume there were no fossils. We still can prove evolution is true using DNA evidence! The dna evidence is enough to say this animal is this much related to this animal.
Evolution is also true because since the history of documenting living things on earth we have seen the natural creation of new species! Sarracenia rosea evolved from Sarracenia purpurea within the history that we have been documenting the genus Sarracenia. You can also look up Peppered Moth.
Also science postulates processes that take place over periods of time to explain things. For example, the grand canyon. Did god make it? Or was it created by erosion? When we see erosion happening, we cannot seriously think GOD made the grand canyon. In the same way, PEOPLE, did god make them or did they evolve. A science classroom cannot postulate the magic man in the sky made man when man is obviously a product of evolution.
One last thing. I am not saying religion should not be taught in schools. I am only saying religion should not be taught in science classrooms, mainly because it is not science.
|
|
Nakor
Star
Non-Prophet
Posts: 991
|
Post by Nakor on May 26, 2010 15:37:11 GMT -5
If we posit for the moment that he did exist and wanted to, yes, he could have. That said, we KNOW it didn't happen, because we can trace ourselves far further back than that, all the way to the single-celled organisms.
Creationism -- the theory that humans were created in their present or near-present form -- is incompatible with reality; we know humans evolved the same as every other creature. Young-earth creationism is also incompatible with reality for the same reasons, and for the reason that we know the planet is billions of years old. The only stretch you can allow for religion is to suppose that god started the big bang and since then has not interfered in the development of the universe or of life on earth. (Effectively deism.)
|
|
|
Post by qooqǝɯɐƃ on May 26, 2010 15:37:41 GMT -5
Maybe what happend before that could be God created it. I cant disprove that he didnt, but you cant disprove that he did. Yea I know, I'm agnostic I believe in something, just don't believe it has a hand in our lives, or that there's an afterlife. Right now I like to believe that something created us and watches us for pleasure. Like in Dan's video "I AM GOD". Anyone else have some weird Agnostic beliefs? I'd love to hear them!
|
|
|
Post by RandiKthxxx on May 26, 2010 15:38:05 GMT -5
Okay. If I were to sit down and debate the validity of the theory of evolution from the pro viewpoint, how would I prove my point? I'm looking for dead on concrete evidence. Similarities in DNA? What is it? I want to know what evidence drives you to hold this as true. Come on Nakor, I want you to do this Dan Brown-BlueOfficeChair style
|
|
|
Post by Joey on May 26, 2010 15:38:20 GMT -5
Okay, new argument. Creationism should not be taught in school science classrooms because their arguments are antiscience! They are not based on facts. To say the magic man in the sky put us here is a dumb argument in science classrooms when EVIDENCE points the other way. How can I prove the evidence goes the other way? Homo habilis, Australopithecus, Homo erectus... Should I go on? How do we know evolution is true? Lets assume there were no fossils. We still can prove evolution is true using DNA evidence! The dna evidence is enough to say this animal is this much related to this animal. Evolution is also true because since the history of documenting living things on earth we have seen the natural creation of new species! Sarracenia rosea evolved from Sarracenia purpurea within the history that we have been documenting the genus Sarracenia. You can also look up Peppered Moth. Also science postulates processes that take place over periods of time to explain things. For example, the grand canyon. Did god make it? Or was it created by erosion? When we see erosion happening, we cannot seriously think GOD made the grand canyon. In the same way, PEOPLE, did god make them or did they evolve. A science classroom cannot postulate the magic man in the sky made man when man is obviously a product of evolution. One last thing. I am not saying religion should not be taught in schools. I am only saying religion should not be taught in science classrooms, mainly because it is not science. agreed. I go to a Catholic school, but we have normal science classes and leave religion to our Theology class
|
|